Lockers??

[DUG]

One of the things I would like to do to my deuce is make it a 6 x 6. I mean when I'm in the mud, sand, chit, whatever; all 6 wheel assemblies are working trying to get me home instead of just sitting there.

Like everyone else I wouldn't mind a little more MPGs and oh yeah, I'm on a budget. If you think I'm out of my mind please stop reading now. If you want to hear my idea and offer advice and suggestions (or then tell me I'm nuts) follow along:

What if I put three lockers in the truck and two sets of selector hubs. I would be driving around town on only one axle most of the time (with a locker) and if needed I could lock the others in.

I could also build it like Johnny Cash - one piece at a time.

My thoughts is to add front selector hubs 1st. Then add a set (or one - I have questions about that) to the rear. Next up would be my full time locker, then my second rear locker and lastily the front (probably air) locker.

As I understand it to use selector hub(s) in the rear I need some custom parts. Also as discussed in the 5 ton thread even with selector hubs up front the locker up there should probably be air.

So am I dead in the water yet or could this work?
Is the order of parts installation they most logical?
Do I need one custom axle and locking hub in the rear or two? (on the same axle)
If I'm running around with a locker in the rear and dragging a back axle, which axle would be best to drag? Forward rear or aft rear?

The WHY is not important and the truck would still spend a lot of time on the street. If this would destroy the streetability then please advise.

I don't want to discuss brands of parts unless they are single source. I'll do my own research on hub selectors and lockers and get what I like. If only one company makes a part I need, then I guess I'll go with them.

Would love some input from those smarter than me. Harry Potter need not ride this train. Feel free to tell me it won't work (and why) but let's not focus on WHY I want to do this. I just do. If it won't make my truck unstreetible.

Thanks in advance.

 

[srodocker]

I was also wanting to do exactly the same thing your wanting to do. but im only at the thought of it right now. havent researched anything

 

[mudguppy]

my thoughts and experience...



thoughts:

• what i have read on here before about disconnecting one of the rear, i agree with (in theory): disconnect the intermediate axle and let the rear do the pushing when in 2wd. the reason i believe this is the better route is because of the suspension design: it is essentially twin, reversed, parrallel 3-links. when power is applied, the rear 3-link tends to bite downward while the front [reversed] 3-link has a tendency to lift (hop) and release traction. therefore, i believe that the rear would perform better 'pushing' than the intermediate would 'pulling'.
• i think that the number of hubs to add to the disconnected axle would be affected by the selection of the locker. i would likely add selectable hubs (and the necessary axle shafts) to both sides if using a self-locking diff but only to one side if using a selectable locker. reason: in theory, you could end up with the same axle bind that you are trying to avoid if you put a hub on only one side while using an automatic locker (no diff action like w/ the air locker). maybe over time you'd experience higher tire wear on one side of the axle vs the other. but i really don't know. maybe try one and then add to the other side if needed??

experience:

• i know everyone says not to, but in my experience, there have not been any detrimental (or even noticeable) effects to having an automatic locker in the front axle; and i mean this when driving around town and highway when i forgot to unlock the front hubs. i never noticed anything even when making tight maneuvers. now, i didn't go down to the cul-de-sac and drive around in 15 circles, but just that i never noticed any feedback. because of hydro steering? don't think so, because w/ 1600's, you'd at least notice some kickback in the truck if there was binding.
• that said, if i had the extra cash, i would still go for the air-locker in the front just for the selectability. heck, i'd do all 3 if i had the cash.
• maybe this should be under the 'thoughts' section, but i really don't regret paying [literally] a few more bucks for the Ouverson locker vs the Detroit. that guy's stuff is tough. and i like that the 16 spline locker can be upgraded to larger shafts w/out having to buy a new locker. with discounts from some members on here, i've seen the Detroits cost more than the Ouverson locker. i just wanted to vote OEM on the lockers.

 

[shovelheadmike]

I really like the idea of.having lockout hubs in the rear and front. Have been trying to figure out some sort of air operated rear axle disconnect. Think that the ARB locking diffs are for.me as they make it much easier to turn, and not just get pushed straight when trying to turn. My A3 is not bobbed, nor is it likely to.be bobbed, so I need all theq help I can get with tight turns.

 

[Unforgiven]

Dug,

Lockout hubs + either a regular "Detroit" or ARB air locker up front only requires the lockout hubs + the differential. Maybe consider a power steering upgrade as well.

Lockout hubs on the front-rear tandem axle would require double-ended-splined axle shafts such as those offered by Ouverson. Likewise, you could either use a Detroit or ARB locker since the hubs will be free while on pavement.

The rear-rear tandem, of course, will not have lockout hubs. Here I would suggest an ARB over a Detroit locker to keep the open differential on pavement.

You are looking at 3 ARB's or Detroits, 2 pairs of lockout hubs, and 2 double-splined rear axles for the forward rear tandem.

3 x ARB = $3.000
2 x lockout hubs = $1,200
2 x Ouverson shafts = $1,200
+ misc (ARB pump, tubing etc)

Probably about 6 grand to make it completely 6x6 and only the rear-rear tandem pushing on the pavement.

So yes, it can be done. The hardest part for you is going to be installing the locking differentials into the center chunks.

 

[kwiksilver]

You're going to need a few more hubs as spares for the rear cause anytime it hops under power they are going to grenade.

 

[DUG]

I know it's pricey but I can do it one piece at a time.

 

[jesusgatos]

If you're on a tight budget, you might want to consider just welding-up the spider-gears on one of the read axles instead of spending the cash on another locker. If you weld-up the middle diff, and run only put power to the rear axle on-road, you won't know it's there until you need it.

 

[patracy]

If money were no object, I'd run ARB's in all three. No need for hubs since they go back to an open diff. Although hubs for the front axle would still be nice.

 

[tvoss]

I've been thinking about the same thing and I think I can get by for $778. Take a look at the Yukon grizzy locker, it is only $389 delivered. Here is what I am going to do. First put 1 in the rear and then put 1 in the front. I don't think I will even notice they are there. If drivability suffers, then get lockouts for the front.

 

[shovelheadmike]

If you are able to do the work your self, cheaper is likely better. However, some of us are no longer able to remove and replace a 2 1/2 ton Rockwell pumpkin by.our selves. So, when you add on the.labor to do it, the.price difference between the ARB and anything else is not that much more and will give you a.vehicle with much better street and off.road miners. One piece at a.time... Remember, any of.the automatic lockers require modifying the.existing pumpkin. The ARB replaces the entire pumpkin. Just don't use that junk plastic tubing, but use steel, or at least copper instead.

Edit: I.misspoke, what I meant to say was the center carrier, not complete pumpkin.

 

[patracy]

ARB doesn't replace the entire pumpkin. It only replaces the diff carrier. You still have to break it down and install and modify the pumpkin.

 

[shovelheadmike]

You're going to need a few more hubs as spares for the rear cause anytime it hops under power they are going to grenade.

Are all of the after market lockout hubs really that bad? Even the Oversons? After all, it is not like we are putting very much HP to them with either an A2 or the slightly more powerful A3.

 

[rongaudier]

I've been thinking about the same thing and I think I can get by for $778. Take a look at the Yukon grizzy locker, it is only $389 delivered. Here is what I am going to do. First put 1 in the rear and then put 1 in the front. I don't think I will even notice they are there. If drivability suffers, then get lockouts for the front.

I'm thinking the same thing. Perhaps it's possible to even get a further discount for 3 of these. They may not be the strongest lockers out there, but I don't plan to be running a blown hemi up front either. Imagine having double the traction!

I just started my deuce for the first time, and now that I've confirmed it runs I'm planning some mods. First off, I think the overdrive kit is a real good investment for fuel economy and engine reliability, so that's a must. Second, I'm planning on sticking with stock tires, but single them out with a hub flip. Third install the aforementioned lockers to regain any lost traction from removing 4 tires and forth, install a front hub lockout to further reduce drag, vibration and wear. My target is 50 mph at around 2100 rpm for cruising and hopefully at least 10 mpg with these mods. With the lockers and stock tires, low speed gearing and traction should not be significantly affected.

 

[tvoss]

If you can lift the pumpkin with a hoist, installing the lockers doesn't look that bad. Since I plan on doing it myself, I reviewed the install instructions for both the ARB and the Yukon. The Yukon actually looks to be easier to install

 

[mudguppy]

You're going to need a few more hubs as spares for the rear cause anytime it hops under power they are going to grenade.

how do you figure this? we'd all love to hear your experience with 'grenaded' hubs. if not personal experience, how many hubs have you heard that have been grenaded?

... Lockout hubs on the front-rear tandem axle would require double-ended-splined axle shafts such as those offered by Ouverson.

...2 x Ouverson shafts = $1,200

...Probably about 6 grand to make it completely 6x6 and only the rear-rear tandem pushing on the pavement. ...

you would actually only need one double-splined shaft and hub on the intermediate axle. same discussion

this is what i would do:

• front Ouverson hubs - $585
• 1 Ouverson hub (intermediate) - $300
• 1 double-splined Ouverson axle shaft - $225 (RBC or other OEM distro)
• OEM UltraLocker, Front - $505
• OEM UltraLocker, Rear - $505
• ARB AirLocker, Intermediate - ~$1k

this gives you 2wd, 3wd, 5wd, or 6wd for a little more than $3k in parts (some estimated prices don't include shipping, some do).

if you want ARBs front and rear, then it'd be a little over $4k total. that gives you 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6wd. excessive, to say the least.

i'd run the OEM lockers front and rear - they don't 'push' from the rear unless you hammer down the loud pedal in a turn. rather, the slower [inner] wheel is locked in and the faster [outter] wheel is unlocked. however, when slip occurs, they become locked in together until power is released and the speeds of the two wheels can be equalized.

also, i've said many times, that i haven't noticed any ill effects with having the locker in the front axle with the hubs locked (but not engaged at the transfer).

it's a personal preference.

I'... Take a look at the Yukon grizzy locker, it is only $389 delivered. ...

don't have any experence with them and haven't hear any press about them (+ or -) because they are new. but with that price being about $50 cheaper than a delivered Detroit and $200 cheaper than a delivered OEM locker, you have to wonder about that 'too go to be true' or 'get what you pay for' kinda price.

speculative

... The Yukon actually looks to be easier to install

of course; there is no air line or drilling required for the Yukon as with the ARB. that should be obvious. the installation of the locker proper is identical for Yukon, OEM, ARB, and Detroit.

... They may not be the strongest lockers out there, but I don't plan to be running a blown hemi up front either. Imagine having double the traction! ...

i'd be extremely warey of a super-cheap locker. the rear of a deuce off-road is going to take a brutal beating because of the scrub and bind between the two axles, even unloaded. that means they will be locking and unlocking in a [driveline] loaded situation often and rapidly. if the locker is inferior, it will not survive a long life. if...

i'd put my money on a proven name if you were in the market now. if not in a hurry, then wait and see what the world says about the Yukon.

 

[tie6044]

Are all of the after market lockout hubs really that bad? Even the Oversons? After all, it is not like we are putting very much HP to them with either an A2 or the slightly more powerful A3.

I can only speak for the Ouversons that they are very well built. I used a set of lockouts on my mud truck in my avatar for 1 1/2 years when I had the 16 spline shafts and never had a problem with them. Thats with 725 HP and 57" Rice & Cane tires. The only problem I had (my own fault) was from a torn axle boot and water went through the knuckle and into my lockouts and I had to replace the bearings (easy), they are now on my deuce and still working great.

 

[kwiksilver]

You're talking about putting as locker in the rear axle of a big truck. Granted, it doesn't have much horsepower but it has enough torque. When you preload the axle in a turn, and for some reason it jerks or hops. I (in my entitled opinion) feel it will take out a lockout hub. On the front, no problem. There is a ton of weight transfer on the rear axle making it very vulnerable to stress fractures. I have been off-roading for a long time and have broken my share of lockout hubs(which is why I run drive flanges now). Even axleshafts on the rear when locked. It is a shockloading thing. Heck, prove me wrong. I've eaten my share of crow!

 

[DUG]

how do you figure this? we'd all love to hear your experience with 'grenaded' hubs. if not personal experience, how many hubs have you heard that have been grenaded?




you would actually only need one double-splined shaft and hub on the intermediate axle. same discussion

this is what i would do:

• front Ouverson hubs - $585
• 1 Ouverson hub (intermediate) - $300
• 1 double-splined Ouverson axle shaft - $225 (RBC or other OEM distro)
• OEM UltraLocker, Front - $505
• OEM UltraLocker, Rear - $505
• ARB AirLocker, Intermediate - ~$1k

this gives you 2wd, 3wd, 5wd, or 6wd for a little more than $3k in parts (some estimated prices don't include shipping, some do).

if you want ARBs front and rear, then it'd be a little over $4k total. that gives you 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6wd. excessive, to say the least.

i'd run the OEM lockers front and rear - they don't 'push' from the rear unless you hammer down the loud pedal in a turn. rather, the slower [inner] wheel is locked in and the faster [outter] wheel is unlocked. however, when slip occurs, they become locked in together until power is released and the speeds of the two wheels can be equalized.

also, i've said many times, that i haven't noticed any ill effects with having the locker in the front axle with the hubs locked (but not engaged at the transfer).

it's a personal preference.





don't have any experence with them and haven't hear any press about them (+ or -) because they are new. but with that price being about $50 cheaper than a delivered Detroit and $200 cheaper than a delivered OEM locker, you have to wonder about that 'too go to be true' or 'get what you pay for' kinda price.

speculative




of course; there is no air line or drilling required for the Yukon as with the ARB. that should be obvious. the installation of the locker proper is identical for Yukon, OEM, ARB, and Detroit.




i'd be extremely warey of a super-cheap locker. the rear of a deuce off-road is going to take a brutal beating because of the scrub and bind between the two axles, even unloaded. that means they will be locking and unlocking in a [driveline] loaded situation often and rapidly. if the locker is inferior, it will not survive a long life. if...

i'd put my money on a proven name if you were in the market now. if not in a hurry, then wait and see what the world says about the Yukon.

This is pretty much my plan, just one piece at a time. Hubs, then lockers. I'll install the lockers in the order that I think will give the biggest benefit 1st.

 

[markmontana]

You're talking about putting as locker in the rear axle of a big truck. Granted, it doesn't have much horsepower but it has enough torque. When you preload the axle in a turn, and for some reason it jerks or hops. I (in my entitled opinion) feel it will take out a lockout hub. On the front, no problem. There is a ton of weight transfer on the rear axle making it very vulnerable to stress fractures. I have been off-roading for a long time and have broken my share of lockout hubs(which is why I run drive flanges now). Even axleshafts on the rear when locked. It is a shockloading thing. Heck, prove me wrong. I've eaten my share of crow!

There are several M35A2's out here with hubs on the center axle. One in particular is considered one of the baddest offroaders around- and the owner takes no prisoners when he offroads. Never a glitch, no issues and no failure that I know of--- and an upgrade that is on my long term upgrade list.

DUG- I would suggest you contact Ouverson and talk to them about the "ultimate package" and let them give you their ideas. Then contact a good off road shop that has built some trucks with Rockwells and get their ideas. Then with all that information- condense it into your plan. Of course, we will all want to see the "ultimate' TRACTION CONTROL UPGRADE' posted here.