How to determine a viable fuel for the multifuel deuce engine

[mikey]

Background: One of my large clients happens to be a pharmaceutical company. They create raw materials used in many of your everyday products such as shampoo, deodorant etc and sell those raw materials to companies like Revlon, Avon, J&J etc... Their key market segments are specialty Emollient Esters, Specialty Surfactants, UV Absorbers and Urethane Emollients and Conditioners. They have waste byproduct that they pay a lot to have disposed.

Question: How can I determine the viability of their waste byproduct as possible fuel for a deuce engine?

My POC at this company has no problem providing me with samples to be tested, MTDS / MSDS sheets or anything else since this could save them money not having to dispose of the waste.

One of the items is "thermonol 59". One of the uses for it, according to this link, is bio diesel: Therminol 59 - Synthetic heat transfer fluid used in low temperature pumping - North America

Another "waste" product he mentioned was petroleum based and he described it as "like gear oil".

Would I send these samples to a lab? If so, what would I ask the lab to look for? How does one determine what is OK for fuel and what is not for a deuce? Is it just trial and error?

Thanks

Mikey

 

[kipman]

Get some samples, see if it burns on a cloth rag, if so it should work, then you will have to think about filtering it.

 

[mikey]

Get some samples, see if it burns on a cloth rag, if so it should work, then you will have to think about filtering it.

filtering shouldn't be an issue... i'll be using a wolverine centrifuge (.5 micron)..

as far as thermonol 59, I'm confident it will burn. Flash point is 295F... diesel is 100-130f, gear oil 375-580f, motor oil 420-485f.. if straight wmo burns, thermonol should also... however, im guessing i need to test for something like btu to determine how effective it is when it burns in the mf engine... anyone know what determines how combustible a fuel is? is that btu?

as for the other petroleum based waste byproduct, i will be getting more info on those raw materials next week...

Overall, I'm not concerned about it burning, I'm more concerned about determining the effects on the IP, engine, seals etc and the exhaust byproduct... if i can find free fuel, thats great, but not if it will damage the deuce... I don't mind paying to send samples to a lab for testing, I'm just not sure what I should be testing for...

 

[stumps]

The MSDS for thermonol 59 doesn't list any special concerns with burning, or any special concerns about toxicity. It is made as a pumping fluid, so it probably wouldn't be a problem for seals, or anything in your fuel system. Absent any first hand experience, I guess you will have to try it and see what it does.

-Chuck

 

[466Navastar]

look at the msds for this product it MAY be considered a hazardous waste - is what it says

auto- ignition temp is 404 degrees c ........404 degrees Celsius = 759.2 degrees Fahrenheit....somebody jump in ---is this good for fuel?

 

[TexAndy]

I wonder what pressure would cause it to reach that temp and where the piston will be to make it reach that pressure?

 

[mikey]

I read the MSDS and had some concerns about the warnings pertaining to inhaling. Also the results of combustion are:

Hazardous products of combustion: carbon monoxide (CO); carbon dioxide; hydrocarbons; soot; smoke

But, I'm not sure what levels of each are present due to combustion or their associated risk.

The MSDS didn't convince me either way, but if nobody here has any solid input on that, I can have a chemist at this facility break that down for me in layman's terms

 

[wreckerman893]

Hazardous products of combustion: carbon monoxide (CO); carbon dioxide; hydrocarbons; soot; smoke

Sounds like the by product of diesel burning.

You can always mix it with something that burns hotter and even the burn out.

 

[emmado22]

Show me something that burns that DOESN'T give off that stuff.........

 

[panshark]

Mikey won't be smelling like fried chicken driving down the road. However...what will the smell be?

 

[mikey]

Show me something that burns that DOESN'T give off that stuff.........

i cant find the MSDS for my wife's cooking....


so, we can "assume" combustion is as safe as diesel... as stated, it is used for bio diesel... now back to the deuce... if i test it out, it will be blended... but so far nobody sees anything that might be a red flag?

thx

mikey

 

[mikey]

look at the msds for this product it MAY be considered a hazardous waste - is what it says

auto- ignition temp is 404 degrees c ........404 degrees Celsius = 759.2 degrees Fahrenheit....somebody jump in ---is this good for fuel?

There are three different types of diesel fuel. These are Diesel No. 1, Diesel No. 2, and Diesel No. 4. The ignition temperature of Diesel fuel No.1 ranges from 450 to 602 Kelvin, Diesel fuel No. 2 ranges from 527 to 558 Kelvin, and Diesel fuel No .4 is 536 Kelvin.

Ignition Temperature of Diesel Fuel

its got an autoignition about 28% - 40% higher than diesel... that is something to consider

 

[stumps]

I pulled an earlier post where I gave the incorrect definition of auto ignition. Just to clarify:

Flash point is the lowest temperature where a heated liquid will ignite in the presence of a flame.
Auto ignition is the lowest temperature where a heated liquid will ignite absent any flame.

If you don't like the auto ignition point of a fuel, add a fuel that ignites the way you like, and it will improve the situation. This is why you add ether when you are trying to start a cold diesel engine.

In the case if this fluid, add some gasoline, or diesel to get the burning going, and it should burn nicely. The only potential problem I see is if it doesn't burn completely, and cokes up the engine with soot.

-Chuck

 

[stampy]

I thought diesels flashpoint was i the 300's and gasoline was in the 100's. I occasionally burn waste hydralic oil in mine. (around the farm only of course)

 

[mikey]

I thought diesels flashpoint was i the 300's and gasoline was in the 100's. I occasionally burn waste hydralic oil in mine. (around the farm only of course)

there is a pretty good reference from wikipedia:

Flash point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

check the table in the "Examples of flash points" section...

of course wikipedia isnt guaranteed accurate...

but navastar brings up a great point... autoignition has to be considered as well as flashpoint and autoignition is pretty high for thermonol... im searching now for other known good fuels and their autoignition points...

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

If AUTOIGNITION POINT is TOO HIGH then HYDROLOCK might result..... RIGHT?????

And this would be a VERY BAD thing...... NO BANG in the cylinders = RODS & PISTONS & CRANK go BOOM

 

[mikey]

found some excellent resources for flashpoint and autoignition... according to these lists, if accurate, petroleum has an autoignition temp of 752... if that is accurate, then thermonol having an autoignition temp of 759 is comparable to wmo and should not be a problem, especially if blended with RUG or diesel...

Flash Point - Fuels

Fuels and Chemicals - Auto Ignition Temperatures

 

[stumps]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

If AUTOIGNITION POINT is TOO HIGH then HYDROLOCK might result..... RIGHT?????

And this would be a VERY BAD thing...... NO BANG in the cylinders = RODS & PISTONS & CRANK go BOOM

Remember that the pistons have a largish combustion chamber depressed into their tops. Any liquid that entered in that way would pool into the combustion chamber, and get tossed out in the exhaust stroke.... the IP just doesn't squirt that much fuel on each charge.

-Chuck