Water to air intercooler, Charge air cooler, Aftercooler...

[merlot566jka]

Doghead,

I missed your last question. Without knowing what the temp coming out of the turbo is, I cant say for sure how much of a reduction I will see. I predict, without any factual data, that the temp coming from the turbo is in the 250* region. I would estimate the cooler to drop the temps to around 90*. So a reduction of about 160*. Again, I have nothing to base this on other than things I have read about these coolers on other diesel engines. And of course outside air temp will play a factor in the cooling effect.

If we had the compressor map from the "D" turbo, and some other basic engine data, I think we could come up with an estimated temp of the charge air. But theory is...well theory. Real world data speaks the truth.

 

[ZackRidesRed]

You can also buy a small radiator core online and use it as your air to water intercooler, you just weld a shroud/box over the core for the charged air. the www.frozenboost.com air to water intercoolers are 'bar and plate' core, they do not work as well as a 'fin and tube' like a radiator core for air to water settups. I will go find some pics now. . .

 

[doghead]

I found this, a good bit of info. Intercooler Theory

 

[ZackRidesRed]

First pic is a bar and plat 2nd is tube and fin, both pics are looking at the core in the direction of air flow. tube and fin will offer you better air flow, heat exchange, and a smaller package for air to water.

 

[Rustygears]

Waste gates limit boost by sensing compressor output. There would be no point to sensing compressor input as it is always at atmospheric pressure. Some waste gates dump exhaust before the turbine to limit the compressor speed and in turn boost. Other systems dump compressor output to keep the pressure from exceeding some limit.

Regardless of which regulating method is used for the waste gate, the simple thermodynamic law is that when a given mass of gas (air) is cooled, the pressure goes down. The opposite is also is true, which is why the compressor output is heated compared to ambient temperature.

 

[Rustygears]

Waste gates limit boost by sensing compressor output. There would be no point to sensing compressor input as it is always at atmospheric pressure. Some waste gates dump exhaust before the turbine to limit the compressor speed and in turn boost. Other systems dump compressor output to keep the pressure from exceeding some limit.

Regardless of which regulating method is used for the waste gate, the simple thermodynamic law is that when a given mass of gas (air) is cooled, the pressure goes down. The opposite is also is true, which is why the compressor output is heated compared to ambient temperature.

 

[khandoh]

Just a thought- How long are you going to be driving your truck? Unless the water cooling radiator can transfer more heat than the "hot" side, there will be a constant increase in temp. Also IIRC water will never get cooler than the ambient air running over the cooling radiator. so unless you plan to add ice, there will be no real difference between an air-to-air and an air-to-water. What perhaps of using a copper, or if deeper pockets are had more exotic material, air-to-air cooler?

Only down side should be weight - its a deuce, and corrosion - IIRC copper can be anodized.

If that makes sense and my science is right...

 

[ODdave]

Hank,
Exactly what I was thinking! The intercooler kit you show an image of is actually made by a company called www.frozenboost.com they offer several kits, peices and parts to configure the whole set up. These are manufactured in China and sold to practically anyone who wants to buy a large quantity of them. Several other companies are selling the same thing with different style radiators, fans, hoses, pumps and fittings.
The end tanks on the coolers are configured in many different ways to allow for easy fitment into almost any vehicle. I am planning on purchasing the "650 hp" kit. I think it will be more than enough for the deuce.

ODDave,
Are you running 9.00x20's? I think larger tires would lower the cruise rpm enough to make a mileage difference.

The 10.5 mpg was on stock 9.00x 20's screw @ stock setting. The trip was mississippi to michigan at an average of 10.5-10.6 mpg. On the 395's i get about 11.2.

 

[merlot566jka]

Good find Doghead! Thats kind of biased for gasoline engines, but the theory is sound. I think the main thing we can take away from that, is no mater how much cooler we get the intake charge temps, we are going to make an improvement on power.

Zack,
Ya know, Ive wondered the same thing. I thought Ive read it was the other way around for some reason. Ill have to look that up. But as far as I have seen, all of the air to water intercoolers are bar and plate style, and radiators are tube and fin.
But in the same breath, wouldnt they make heater cores bar and plate if they exchanged heat better? Perhaps you are right. I will google it and see what I can come up with.

I do have a buddy that used a stack of heater cores from a small import car beneath his supercharger and it worked well, until one of the cores started to leak and he blew all of the coolant out of the system and onto the track.

 

[mudguppy]

... The more the multi is screwed with and made to be like a CIVI engine, the higher the failed rate. ...

i wonder what the comparative number of well-maintained MF's with windowed blocks is to well-maintained modern medium duty engines with similar failure? and how about that number compared to average miles driven as a measurable failure rate?


adding a charge-air cooling system will not reduce reliability in and of itself, even if it does 'civy' it up.... (as if the deuce is great just because the military owned it ).


an ATW charge-air cooling system is more efficient than an ATA system. the water is close-looped and should utilize a seperate heat exchanger to control cooling fluid temps; basically a small radiator/fluid cooler, electric water pump and fan mounted remotely.

it would likely reduce IAC temps down quite a bit; and as inefficient as the coolant-jacketed manifold is, it would still be best to bypass this 'warmed' manifold to reap as many benefits as possible (as DH mentioned).

 

[mudguppy]

... I predict, without any factual data, that the temp coming from the turbo is in the 250* region. I would estimate the cooler to drop the temps to around 90*. ...

IAC temps are likely not that hot given the low amount of boost these turbos produce. and a good ATW intercooler should drop temps more than 90°.

... Some waste gates dump exhaust before the turbine to limit the compressor speed and in turn boost. ...

all 'waste gates' operate in this way, sorta; except they are limiting drive pressure, not compressor speed.

... Other systems dump compressor output to keep the pressure from exceeding some limit. ...

these are called 'blow-off valves' and are used to prevent damage to the turbo shaft from surge or compressor wheel stall; they don't regulate boost or turbo speed.

 

[ZackRidesRed]

Good find Doghead! Thats kind of biased for gasoline engines, but the theory is sound. I think the main thing we can take away from that, is no mater how much cooler we get the intake charge temps, we are going to make an improvement on power.

Zach,
Ya know, Ive wondered the same thing. I thought Ive read it was the other way around for some reason. Ill have to look that up. But as far as I have seen, all of the air to water intercoolers are bar and plate style, and radiators are tube and fin.
But in the same breath, wouldnt they make heater cores bar and plate if they exchanged heat better? Perhaps you are right. I will google it and see what I can come up with.

I do have a buddy that used a stack of heater cores from a small import car beneath his supercharger and it worked well, until one of the cores started to leak and he blew all of the coolant out of the system and onto the track.

Bar and plate cores are worlds better for an air to air system and are the most common in the performance auto world. people dont talk about what core to use in a air to water system very often.

I plan to do a air to air system in my trucks some time as I prefer the simplicity of the air to air coolers.

 

[merlot566jka]

Rusty, I get what you're saying now. I guess I miss understood.
But yes, if the air is cooled, it will lose some of its pressure. Without a wastegate, I dont know if this issue will effect me. I guess I could just turn up the fuel to compensate for the lost boost, and inturn get more air (more dense air I suppose). Sounds like if I were aiming for a certain level of boost, it would turn into a snowball effect and I would just keep chasing my tail.

Khandoh,
I will be driving the truck on a 2200 mile journey soon. I agree, the temp of the water will not be colder than ambient air, and properly setup there shouldnt be a differance between a water to air and an air to air. The radiator will have to be large enough to dissapate all of the heat possible from the warm air charge. Heat soaking may become a factor.
The reason for the water to air vs air to air, is I dont want to modify the front of the deuce to fit an adequate air to air intercooler. There just isnt enough room infront of the radiator to slip one in. Low mounting one presents a whole other plethora of problems with off roading. I guess there is the top mount air to air option, (hummer looking hood?)

ODdave,
Yikes, maybe there is something wrong with my trucks settings? I know the fuel has been turned up above factory settings, well the boost level is higher than the TM's say it should be. Ill start a new thread to deal with MPG, Settings, and the like.

 

[m16ty]

By just adding a inner-cooler you won't notice much power increase (if any). What it does allow you to do is turn up the fuel more and keep EGT in check though.

There is a thread around here somewhere where a guy put a air-to-air cooler on a 5-ton multifuel. The front end had to be modified for it to fit.

Cranetruck has done a bunch of research on the multifuel and has posted intake air temps and such. You may can search and find it.

 

[ZackRidesRed]

If you ditch the stock air cleaner I bet you could fit an air to air cooler on the right side of the engine, you could cut out the sheet metal under the headlite for the air inlet and vent it through the core. The opening in the frunt end for the intercooler only needs to be 25%-50% the size of the intercooler core.

 

[merlot566jka]

IAC temps are likely not that hot given the low amount of boost these turbos produce. and a good ATW intercooler should drop temps more than 90°.




all 'waste gates' operate in this way, sorta; except they are limiting drive pressure, not compressor speed.



these are called 'blow-off valves' and are used to prevent damage to the turbo shaft from surge or compressor wheel stall; they don't regulate boost or turbo speed.

I agree, but I think the turbos are little small for the engine. I will find out the charge air temp when I can get back to my truck.
I hope it does drop it more than 90*! That would be great!

waste gates bypass exhaust gas around the turbine, yup I agree. At the same time, if the turbine doesnt have pressure, the compressor wheel is going to slow down too. But cause and effect, not effect and cause.

The BOV is mostly a gas engine device, as diesels dont have a throttle blade that slams shut while the turbo is still making pressure. Diesels can run lean with out damage, yet if a gasoline engine does, it could spell disaster. It wont hurt the diesel to have 7psi of boost when you let off the fuel rack.

I also agree on bypassing the coolant that heats the intake manifold. I have thought of ways to do this in my head, but for the time being, I am going to try it first without bypassing. I cant seem to think of a cheap way to make the thermostat housing/outlet. It seems as though I am going to have to have something machined. My thought was to make 6 individual tubes that feed into a collector and have the thermostat housing a part of that collector... But if I'm going that far, how much more work would it be to just fabricate my own intake manifold with an integrated WTA cooler...?

Zack,
Yup you are right! I googled and looked around a few turbo forums. I guess they make tube and fin ATA intercoolers too, for cost and weights' sake.

I guess my option is to see if the cheap WTA that uses bar and plate design is adequate or seek out one who makes a tube and fin WTA intercooler. I dont have the tools to weld aluminum and making a steel WTA intercooler with copper heater cores inside sounds like a frankenstien project I dont want to take on for the moment. By the looks of things, the cheap China stuff is the best option for now. ( I guess this is why people are fat... MC'Ds is cheaper and easier than cooking so it satisfies hunger faster... instant gratification VS delayed gratification)

 

[ODdave]

what about the high comp ratio of the engine? how much boost is it gonna take? are you gonna change the pistons to lower it?

 

[ZackRidesRed]

Zach, Yup you are right! I googled and looked around a few turbo forums. I guess they make tube and fin ATA intercoolers too, for cost and weights' sake.

I guess my option is to see if the cheap WTA that uses bar and plate design is adequate or seek out one who makes a tube and fin WTA intercooler. I dont have the tools to weld aluminum and making a steel WTA intercooler with copper heater cores inside sounds like a frankenstien project I dont want to take on for the moment. By the looks of things, the cheap China stuff is the best option for now. ( I guess this is why people are fat... MC'Ds is cheaper and easier than cooking so it satisfies hunger faster... instant gratification VS delayed gratification)

If you could get the parts to me I would weld them up for you, welding aluminum heat exchangers and pressure vessels is what I do for a living.

 

[merlot566jka]

M16ty,
I agree, in itself it wont increase power. It will allow me to turn up the fuel and increase the power.

I saw the photos of that 5ton, and what the guy had written. It was interesting to see the results and a partial inspiration for the WTA setup I am thinking of. But the way he had to modify that grill just totally turned me off of the ATA option, I just cant handle taking away from the deuces look...

I have read some of cranetrucks stuff, mostly about the intake restriction. I will search for his name and some key words and see if I can learn some more.

Zack,
For a proper sized ATA, in my mind, its going to be much larger than what I can fit in the engine bay or behind the stock headlight area. I have started to wonder about mounting it above the engine and cutting a gigantic hole in the hood... haha.. .ok done with that thought.

ODdave,
Nah, I dont have the plans to change the pistons. I am not going for an all out boost situation. I will see how far I can go with the intercooler. I dont perdict anything more than 15-18psi before I reach the limits of the turbo or the head gaskets. But thats stabbing in the dark. The "d" turbo is what I am working with and I havent personally tried to measure it for any sort of A/R or found any data about the turbo itself. It could possibly make more power... or it could be a heavy hair drier... who knows. If I get to the point where I feel its worthwhile to change pistons, I will probably upgrade to an LDS or go an entirely different route all together (12v71 anyone....j/k). Thats much further down the road. For now, lets see how far the intercooler will get me.

Zack,
That would be great and I appreciate the offer. I will likely pick your brain soon now that you've released that information and you are in my area! But I think the fastest solution (McChicken anyone?) will be the cheap one. I only have about 17 days to get this idea on the truck once I start the work... I will be transiting across country soon in the deuce. Once I arrive at my new home (Oklahoma!), it is likely that devolopment will continue on with tons of factual data. The cheap intercooler is exactly that, cheap! The level of equipment I think you are refering to should take some time and effort to devolop.
I will compare it to strippers vs girlfriends... the stripper you can see and enjoy and toss to the side when you're done and only lose a few bucks... where as the the girlfriend is going to involve constant cash flow, emotions, investing, flowers, lifting toilet seats yet may prove to be worthwhile...and if it wasnt worth while you are left with a void (empty wallet).
I am not ready for that level of commitment to this project. But later on down the road if the stripper..er... cheap intercooler proves to make a difference and I see potential for an improved design I will look at the option of getting something better welded up and doing more.

 

[Mikey90744]

I know, its an old thread, sorry, but if you havent built anything yet, why use a bilge pump? why not use a "sea water pump" they are belt driven instead of electric