14 Bolt Rear Open Conversion?

[Corvette1974]

Hey guys,

Its been a *while* since I've been on here and my poor '28 has been sitting for over a year now. Long story short, as I converted the truck to an NV4500, I need to delete the locker in the rear. What are my options for doing this/what is the easiest method to accomplish this? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Will

 

[Evil Dr. Porkchop]

Why do you need to remove the locker with an NV4500?

 

[Corvette1974]

Why do you need to remove the locker with an NV4500?

Thing shifts like garbage, the locker allows too much driveshaft play so the synchros have to work too much. And the synchros have to fight the locker, etc. Ive done all diagnostic and it is definitely the locker that causes the problems. Plus if you are going around a turn not on the throttle it bucks *seriously* to the point where it is almost like having wheel hop (break things, more wear). Not good all around.

-Will

 

[ridenby]

Suppose you checked tire pressures. Maybe the way you shift is faulty. Timing of shifts,etc. Detroit locker is pretty much a lunch box locker, remove it replace with spider gears,whala . Or pull whole unit replace with open carrier. Seeing as there are hundreds of NV4500 in use with these trucks....

 

[sandcobra164]

I'm lost on this question as well but I'm not well educated on lockers used with a manual transmission. How does the locker cause an issue with the synchros in the transmission? The syncrhos are only in use during shifts to try and match input and output speed on the gear being selected before it actually locks into a gear. My M1028 still has an automatic and I've experienced the "jerk and chirp" of the locker when turning hard at low speed and accelerating but have never felt a thing under deceleration. I'm only asking so that I can learn.

 

[porkysplace]

I'm trying to see how the locker affects the shifting myself . And I had several truck manuals and lockers .

 

[Recovry4x4]

It really is as simple as removing the case, splitting it and remove locker, replace with factory spider gears and cross shaft.

 

[Chaski]

It really is as simple as removing the case, splitting it and remove locker, replace with factory spider gears and cross shaft.

I’d add in measuring backlash before you pull it apart, and match your as-found number when you put the carrier back in.

It isn’t difficult, and I bet if you have some time on your hands you could get the guts out of a stock carrier for free or cheap from someone installing a Detroit.

 

[Corvette1974]

So I can basically just put the factory spiders in and reset the backlash and call it a day? That isnt that bad, especially because the adjustments are built into the 14 bolt.

I dont know what to say to explain the situation haha Tires are fine, maybe my locker itself is faulty/sticking? Plus the lockers on these add almost a full 1/2 revolution of free play which does a lot of "banging" when you let off the gas which I can assume isnt great for the whole 5th gear issue. I try to be very smooth with it but driving is a dynamic event so there are unplanned for events.

I got the trans out of a truck with 19k miles, brand new everything, fresh OEM fluid. Clutch is definitely disengaging properly. It can shift fine but it is intermittent - and in the drivetrain the *only* factor that is random is the locker/only the locker has variables. And plus, I only drive in normal situations, eliminate the tire wear, etc.

-Will

 

[Corvette1974]

I'm lost on this question as well but I'm not well educated on lockers used with a manual transmission. How does the locker cause an issue with the synchros in the transmission? The syncrhos are only in use during shifts to try and match input and output speed on the gear being selected before it actually locks into a gear. My M1028 still has an automatic and I've experienced the "jerk and chirp" of the locker when turning hard at low speed and accelerating but have never felt a thing under deceleration. I'm only asking so that I can learn.

My truck was smooth with the auto as well, with only minor jerking. It is really bad with the manual transmission. I've driven many manual pickups and none of them are as bad as this, even a 1947 dodge with an unsynchronized trans (which is smooth as butter). I think the synchro issue would be because in a normal manual/open differential car, the synchros have a limited range of work that needs to happen with well known specifications as to the "power" the synchros need. However, with the huge driveshaft, 1/2 turn of free play, locking/unlocking at random times, etc there are just too many different factors for it to shift smoothly.

-Will

 

[Keith_J]

Something isn't right. The locker in my 1031 only gives me a clue it is back there once a week at the most. Usually rain slick roads, making a sharp turn under power. Then just a jerk/snap. I have learned how to not make it do that..most of the time.

You cannot easily delete the Detroit Locker, you need a new carrier. It operates totally different than side/spider gear differentials.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Something isn't right. The locker in my 1031 only gives me a clue it is back there once a week at the most. Usually rain slick roads, making a sharp turn under power. Then just a jerk/snap. I have learned how to not make it do that..most of the time.

You cannot easily delete the Detroit Locker, you need a new carrier. It operates totally different than side/spider gear differentials.

I'll have to beg to differ on that. I've done the swap (opposite direction) quite a few times moving the Locker from the single wheel 14 bolt to a c&c dually 14 bolt. Switching from a gov lock to open requires a carrier change, not so changing from spiders to a Detroit Locker. PN is 225S10, you may be able to find instructions online.

 

[Chaski]

Yep, it is that easy. Worst part is smelling the gear oil.

I remember driving around a Toyota 4Runner that had a manual transmission and a Detroit. It one one cantankerous thing to drive around town. I’m with you on the locker making itself much more apparent as soon as you add a manual transmission into the mix. For about a K you could install an ARB...

 

[Corvette1974]

Yep, it is that easy. Worst part is smelling the gear oil.

I remember driving around a Toyota 4Runner that had a manual transmission and a Detroit. It one one cantankerous thing to drive around town. I’m with you on the locker making itself much more apparent as soon as you add a manual transmission into the mix. For about a K you could install an ARB...

Bingo! At least I'm not alone haha. The detroit is a disaster with a manual transmission. I'm all about rough vehicles, etc but when a Mack R model is smoother to drive than your pickup, something has to change. The detroit wasnt a problem at all with the auto, because an auto always keeps preload on the axle to a point. A manual allows the gears to more often/more heavily "backlash" which I think messes with the logic of the system. And I dont think that banging is healthy for the 5th gear issue (especially knowing how the issue exists in the first place) My $.02 of course.

I know the ARB is available, but I basically never plan to offroad this thing again (trying to make it nice...)

-Will

 

[Corvette1974]

Something isn't right. The locker in my 1031 only gives me a clue it is back there once a week at the most. Usually rain slick roads, making a sharp turn under power. Then just a jerk/snap. I have learned how to not make it do that..most of the time.

You cannot easily delete the Detroit Locker, you need a new carrier. It operates totally different than side/spider gear differentials.

With the auto, the locker was no issue. To the point where I thought "people just blew the roughness of lockers out of proportion" It was basically unnoticeable.

I'll have to beg to differ on that. I've done the swap (opposite direction) quite a few times moving the Locker from the single wheel 14 bolt to a c&c dually 14 bolt. Switching from a gov lock to open requires a carrier change, not so changing from spiders to a Detroit Locker. PN is 225S10, you may be able to find instructions online.

Good to hear - so the swap is relatively easy....

 

[sweetk30]

what fluid is in the nv4500 trans ? this can have a huge effect on the way they shift / feel . do NOT use reg old oil in them . they need the special stuff for them .

 

[Recovry4x4]

Yeah, I've done the swap a few times. Wish I had the parts I took out, I'd at a little boot and swap you. I'm one locker short here.

Oddly, I don't see the same issues you do. I have an SM465 in my truck. Have an NV4500 on the shelf waiting to go in. Hope it works out.

 

[Evil Dr. Porkchop]

I didn't notice any difference with my m1028 after the NV4500 swap. I'd say it's still more well behaved than the one in my other CUCV with the auto transmission.

 

[dependable]

Interesting thread, the locker does add significant play to rear driveline, so it makes sense it could affect shifting with a manual.

I'll just add that I've noticed variation in the behavior of the locker in different trucks, all with original TH 400. Of course the way they act varies with load, but even in bone stock, empty 1008s and 1028s, I notice variations in levels of cornering chirp & hop, and how often they adjust themselves(the "clank", for lack of a better word). Whether this is a function of wear or something else, I do not know.

I wonder if differences in shifting styles adds another variation.

 

[patracy]

I have to wonder what your backlash is on the truck. Also, have you lifted it? (Pinion angle, springs)