3D Printed Seal Driver

[Awesomeness]

Agree to disagree on several points, but that is just 20+ years in CAD/CAM and IT I will likely be making a lot more models for at least the CUCV and 5 Ton and some instructions for durable 3d printing.

Have many rounds through SLA AR15 lowers, VZ Skorpions, Glocks and much more. Durable printing is a very dear subject to me. SLA lags behind only because entry level FDM machines are flooding the marketplace while a good SLA machine costs more and takes more time to get up to speed.

Thanks for your contribution.

You didn't really provide much reasoning for your arguments. I explained exactly why I made the decisions I did. You're just trying to turn it into a resume contest, but you shouldn't assume so much. (That's actually a Logical Fallacy called an Appeal to Authority.)

It's pretty easy to get to the 80/20 solution. You clearly know more than most hobbyists probably do, and you can make some prints that will likely work well. To really put the polish on designs takes a lot more effort and knowledge, and having an open mind.

 

[Mullaney]

Just saw you had replied, already finished one seal tool. Ran it through Ansys and webbing/relieved design was about 70% weaker in a failure analysis than simple flare. Having been deeply involved in CAD/CAM for some time now I can lend a hand in durable and cost effective FDM/SLA modeling.

I made a reinforced version (bolstered shaft diameter and longer taper from head end), printed in FDM at 45% infill (triangle pattern) it will survive quite a while. I always add more shell layers for parts that need to be durable as well as raising the temp some.

In SLA (resin) it will be equally as durable with a 50/50 blend of Siraya Blu and Siraya Tenacious, with the added benefit of printing faster and having much more precision. I started years ago in FDM and jumped into SLA as soon as it became available due to the consistent results and level of detail provided.

Printed in FDM (plastic): Approximately 23 hours, with a material usage of 341 grams (about $8.00 dollars in PLA+).
Printed in SLA (Premium durable resin): 9 hours, with a material usage of 540 grams (about $23.00 dollars in Siraya blend).
* Of note: If I select a normal resin, the price drops to approximately 10 dollars, however longevity will suffer.

.
The hardest part for people to remember is that everyone isn't an engineer. Everyone isn't a CAD/CAM draftsman either. We (99% of us) want to or are willing to spend a few dollars to get what we want or need. Especially if it is something that makes our lives easier or simplifies something that we need to do.

There are others who know how to do things and fix things and have other special skills. That group of people can and do help others and teach how to do things... That group of people too have value and should be compensated too. NONE of us have to do any of it, but we WANT to do and help for others!

Anyway, I just felt like I needed to say don't hesitate to offer up a product that you might have developed. Just GO FOR IT. Pick a number, don't worry about making a profit on your brain power and produce a quality product for a reasonable price! People will find it and buy it if they need it.

Tim
.

 

[olly hondro]

The phrase "good enough" stratifies engineering philosophy, and generations, I believe. When I was a young Engineer (back when there were dinosaurs) I would engineer the very best solution that I could, drawing from libraries of technical literature, a university education, and mentors. Today, I am expected to engineer a solution "good enough to meet cost and schedule." That is a whole different skill set, mind set, and requirements set.

 

[Bulldogger]

Awesomeness, to your comment a few posts ago about cost as one reason to avoid nylon, I have been getting successful prints now for weeks using KAKO string trimmer line from Amazon, $15/Kg (strictly speaking it's $29.99 for a 5lb spool). It is true that my printer was a self-gift, and is more capable than many can have. I agree with your recommendation of a Prusa kit. It is a lot of printer for the money and an excellent customer service and fan base. I went big and can print 450C, 99C bed and 80C chamber (I am going to ask the MFR to give me new firmware to elevate the bed temp above 100C, for sake of some fancy filaments down the road). In terms of verified performance (verified by others) PEI and Ultem are my top end, with PEEK claimed by the MFR but hard to prove among my fellow owners. At $200/Kg for some of these aerospace materials, it will be a looooooooong time before I buy any to experiment with. I'm doing fine though with ABS, ASA, and Nylon of several flavors and am experimenting with carbon fiber filled versions thereof. (Shout-out to 3DX Tech, I like their filaments and they are my go-to when I am willing to pay for quality and repeatability in consumables.)

I would offer to anyone who watched CNC Kitchen on YouTube print with Oregon brand trimmer line nylon, I think his German variant is different than our US one. I could not replicate his results in the US using our locally produced version. I tried for weeks with it to get a good print, this is after dialing in KAKO very well, and it is simply too roughly made (rough in terms of quality and base materials). There is one more cheap brand of 0.65" line recently made available I mean to try in the coming weeks, but I am focused on using KAKO nylon to fill my personal project backlog before I experiment more.

For general prints in an enclosed chamber without as much fanfare or dual extrusion and so on I have a Tronxy X5SA Pro which does well for ABS, ASA and PLA. I've been using it lately to print custom small 1lb capacity spools to put the KAKO on. These small spools fit into my 3D printer chamber in pace of bare (but larger) 1Kg spools, but my smaller spools are inside a home-made dry box, which is critical for 12 hour printing nylon.

I am enjoying this discussion gents, and appreciate everyone who is sharing their experiences in this "new" way of making parts for our MVs.

Bulldogger

 

[Mullaney]

The phrase "good enough" stratifies engineering philosophy, and generations, I believe. When I was a young Engineer (back when there were dinosaurs) I would engineer the very best solution that I could, drawing from libraries of technical literature, a university education, and mentors. Today, I am expected to engineer a solution "good enough to meet cost and schedule." That is a whole different skill set, mind set, and requirements set.

olly hondro , You perfectly described a large computer company that I worked for some years ago. I agree that the "good enough" mentality is why that company who had "the cookie man" leading the group at one point in time is in the crummy shape they are in today.

Another perfect example was a product that I worked on. This explains WHY stupid happens:
1. Marketing asks for a machine (describes end goal) and specifies Remote Support
2. Engineering describes and builds a prototype
3. Engineering creates a bill of materials (cost) and presents that to Marketing
4. Marketing freaks out and says it costs way too much and exceeds their "Price Point"
5. Engineering begins reducing features and looking toward sourcing less costly components
6. Marketing complains that Engineering is too expensive.
7. After further cost reductions, agreement with Marketing and Engineering is reached.
8. Product is brought to market.

You can imagine the drill... Ultimately the remote support (back in the days of a modem) hardware was removed and was replaced with a piece of software that gathered all the info the modem could have instantly given a technician access.

So, technically Marketing got Remote Support (put the floppy disk in an overnight mailer).
Engineering built a cheaper model because they were told that they had to.

CUSTOMERS got a crummy product. It met the specifications, but barely.

DEFINITELY a different skill set, mind set, and requirements set (as you stated before).

.

 

[Awesomeness]

The phrase "good enough" stratifies engineering philosophy, and generations, I believe. When I was a young Engineer (back when there were dinosaurs) I would engineer the very best solution that I could, drawing from libraries of technical literature, a university education, and mentors. Today, I am expected to engineer a solution "good enough to meet cost and schedule." That is a whole different skill set, mind set, and requirements set.

That wasn't my point at all. He was making parts of the seal driver thicker that are already too thick, leaving thin weak parts thin (these probably can't be changed much because of how it has to fit), and then trying to puff up his chest about how he knows what ANSYS is. It's amateur hour. Just making anything you can access thicker does not equate to better.



This is how the driver deforms. It's all in that thin red lip, before anything else.

 

[Awesomeness]

Awesomeness, to your comment a few posts ago about cost as one reason to avoid nylon, I have been getting successful prints now for weeks using KAKO string trimmer line from Amazon, $15/Kg (strictly speaking it's $29.99 for a 5lb spool). It is true that my printer was a self-gift, and is more capable than many can have. I agree with your recommendation of a Prusa kit. It is a lot of printer for the money and an excellent customer service and fan base. I went big and can print 450C, 99C bed and 80C chamber (I am going to ask the MFR to give me new firmware to elevate the bed temp above 100C, for sake of some fancy filaments down the road). In terms of verified performance (verified by others) PEI and Ultem are my top end, with PEEK claimed by the MFR but hard to prove among my fellow owners. At $200/Kg for some of these aerospace materials, it will be a looooooooong time before I buy any to experiment with. I'm doing fine though with ABS, ASA, and Nylon of several flavors and am experimenting with carbon fiber filled versions thereof. (Shout-out to 3DX Tech, I like their filaments and they are my go-to when I am willing to pay for quality and repeatability in consumables.)

I would offer to anyone who watched CNC Kitchen on YouTube print with Oregon brand trimmer line nylon, I think his German variant is different than our US one. I could not replicate his results in the US using our locally produced version. I tried for weeks with it to get a good print, this is after dialing in KAKO very well, and it is simply too roughly made (rough in terms of quality and base materials). There is one more cheap brand of 0.65" line recently made available I mean to try in the coming weeks, but I am focused on using KAKO nylon to fill my personal project backlog before I experiment more.

For general prints in an enclosed chamber without as much fanfare or dual extrusion and so on I have a Tronxy X5SA Pro which does well for ABS, ASA and PLA. I've been using it lately to print custom small 1lb capacity spools to put the KAKO on. These small spools fit into my 3D printer chamber in pace of bare (but larger) 1Kg spools, but my smaller spools are inside a home-made dry box, which is critical for 12 hour printing nylon.

I am enjoying this discussion gents, and appreciate everyone who is sharing their experiences in this "new" way of making parts for our MVs.

Bulldogger

Straight nylon, like string trimmer line, is probably too soft for this application. The nylon itself will have much better impact resistance than PETG (or others), but significantly less strength to absorb the abuse in the thin areas. When I was talking about nylon, I meant a nylon filled with a reinforcing fiber (e.g. fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.).

The other design consideration was whether these would be printed and sold, or the file provided for others to make themselves. If you're making them, you can use a more exotic material, and find a way to accomplish using it (e.g. heated enclosure). If you're expecting others to print them themselves, then it's beneficial to try to use a filament that most people can print successfully, allowing the maximum number of people to be able to print them.

 

[Bulldogger]

Straight nylon, like string trimmer line, is probably too soft for this application. The nylon itself will have much better impact resistance than PETG (or others), but significantly less strength to absorb the abuse in the thin areas. When I was talking about nylon, I meant a nylon filled with a reinforcing fiber (e.g. fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.).

The other design consideration was whether these would be printed and sold, or the file provided for others to make themselves. If you're making them, you can use a more exotic material, and find a way to accomplish using it (e.g. heated enclosure). If you're expecting others to print them themselves, then it's beneficial to try to use a filament that most people can print successfully, allowing the maximum number of people to be able to print them.

Excellent points. I have played with GF ABS and that is pretty strong, and not too expensive. CF ABS and CF Nylon are next, but I want to be really sure before I hit "Print" because they were costly (compared to disposable or often on sale filaments like Amazon Basics or Sunlu).

See you all soon in the 3D Print forum.

Bulldogger

 

[Awesomeness]

Excellent points. I have played with GF ABS and that is pretty strong, and not too expensive. CF ABS and CF Nylon are next, but I want to be really sure before I hit "Print" because they were costly (compared to disposable or often on sale filaments like Amazon Basics or Sunlu).

See you all soon in the 3D Print forum.

Bulldogger

The other thing to mention with the filled filaments (fillings such as carbon fiber, fiberglass, metal powders, etc.) is that they are extremely abrasive. Make sure you have hardened nozzles, and any other upgrades your printer type may require. This is especially true with the carbon fiber filled, which can wear out a brass nozzle in a day. It's also a cost to factor in, if you're printing them to sell.

 

[olly hondro]

olly hondro , You perfectly described a large computer company that I worked for some years ago. I agree that the "good enough" mentality is why that company who had "the cookie man" leading the group at one point in time is in the crummy shape they are in today.

Another perfect example was a product that I worked on. This explains WHY stupid happens:
1. Marketing asks for a machine (describes end goal) and specifies Remote Support
2. Engineering describes and builds a prototype
3. Engineering creates a bill of materials (cost) and presents that to Marketing
4. Marketing freaks out and says it costs way too much and exceeds their "Price Point"
5. Engineering begins reducing features and looking toward sourcing less costly components
6. Marketing complains that Engineering is too expensive.
7. After further cost reductions, agreement with Marketing and Engineering is reached.
8. Product is brought to market.

You can imagine the drill... Ultimately the remote support (back in the days of a modem) hardware was removed and was replaced with a piece of software that gathered all the info the modem could have instantly given a technician access.

So, technically Marketing got Remote Support (put the floppy disk in an overnight mailer).
Engineering built a cheaper model because they were told that they had to.

CUSTOMERS got a crummy product. It met the specifications, but barely.

DEFINITELY a different skill set, mind set, and requirements set (as you stated before).

.

As an old-school Engineer, margin is my most favorite thing. You see, in the conflict engagement arena, future CONOPS will be more challenging, not easier. If today's design has margin, then it will accommodate future environments without redesign + requalification. The trend is to sell the margin, that is, recognize there is excess capability so trade down for something cheaper or good enough. The thought is that if a round misses its target, well, fire another. Problem is, launching the first round reveals your position to the intended target so now he gets a shot at you.....

 

[Mullaney]

As an old-school Engineer, margin is my most favorite thing. You see, in the conflict engagement arena, future CONOPS will be more challenging, not easier. If today's design has margin, then it will accommodate future environments without redesign + requalification. The trend is to sell the margin, that is, recognize there is excess capability so trade down for something cheaper or good enough. The thought is that if a round misses its target, well, fire another. Problem is, launching the first round reveals your position to the intended target so now he gets a shot at you.....

Very well said. I can remember sneaking in parts for future versions in our products.
However, it sounded so much more eloquent the way you said it.

Thanks for the conversation!
.

 

[Bulldogger]

The other thing to mention with the filled filaments (fillings such as carbon fiber, fiberglass, metal powders, etc.) is that they are extremely abrasive. Make sure you have hardened nozzles, and any other upgrades your printer type may require. This is especially true with the carbon fiber filled, which can wear out a brass nozzle in a day. It's also a cost to factor in, if you're printing them to sell.

Absolutely. I have taken to running tool steel nozzles in both extruders now.
You're not kidding about nylon's abrasiveness. I was playing with Taulman Bridge nylon a few months ago, and printed about a three hour job with it. Then I switched filaments and was having a terrible time with a new file and filament. Finally I replaced the brass nozzle and took a look at it; it was clearly eroded and the hole in the tip was much wider than it left the factory and it was elliptical as well. It took only a few hours' time.
I tried stainless steel after that, but I kept boogering the tips cleaning them (my habit is to crimp/scrape a nozzle with the little cutters I use to trim filament). Brass nozzles geometry wasn't an issue with this, but the SS nozzles I bought were on the small/cheap side.
On top of that I have one all-metal hot end and one with the PTFE inside, giving me two different temperature ranges on the dual extruders.
So to conclude this long story, rather than be swapping nozzles out often, and having to recalibrate bed height and z offset each time, I just run tool steel now (push the temp up 5-10C to compensate for steel is all). As far as size, since nobody asked, I use mostly 0.8mm for the parts I make.

BDGR

 

[Awesomeness]

my habit is to crimp/scrape a nozzle with the little cutters I use to trim filament

That will do it. Use a brass brush for cleaning the nozzle. Just put a piece of paper down on the bed to collect debris, and scrub it gently with the brush (while heated to temp).

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[Awesomeness]

As an old-school Engineer, margin is my most favorite thing. You see, in the conflict engagement arena, future CONOPS will be more challenging, not easier. If today's design has margin, then it will accommodate future environments without redesign + requalification. The trend is to sell the margin, that is, recognize there is excess capability so trade down for something cheaper or good enough. The thought is that if a round misses its target, well, fire another. Problem is, launching the first round reveals your position to the intended target so now he gets a shot at you.....

This is a silly argument, because there is no upper limit on how much margin you can add. I could say that your roll cage on your truck isn't good enough, because clearly you don't know what you're doing and didn't add enough margin "like I would have", blah blah blah.

Engineering always has been to design the minimum amount that meets the requirements (which include a specific margin). "Old school engineers" didn't have the tools or science to see the world as clearly as it can be understood today, so they had to compensate by adding margin in ways they the guessed at, or learned through trial and error. It's a romantic idea to think that ended up being better, but it usually wasn't.

Like with your "firing rounds" example, have you seen how much ordnance had to be delivered to destroy targets? They use to level cities to try to hit one factory. Now we drop a single guided munition down the chimney. And we can shoot down an incoming round out of the air.

So I guess the "better" design for this seal driver is for it to be a solid cylinder. ANSYS told me! It's 1000% stronger. The thin lip still caves in though...

 

[Bulldogger]

That will do it. Use a brass brush for cleaning the nozzle. Just put a piece of paper down on the bed to collect debris, and scrub it gently with the brush (while heated to temp).

Amazon.com: 9PCS MINI Brass Brushes Set, Curved Handle Scratch Wire ToothBrush, Cleaning Welding Slag and Rust: Home Improvement

Buy 9PCS MINI Brass Brushes Set, Curved Handle Scratch Wire ToothBrush, Cleaning Welding Slag and Rust: Scratch Brushes - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

smile.amazon.com

Agreed. I do that when I happen to catch the nozzle at temp, but sometimes it's cold and I'm lazy. But that's what spare nozzles are for, at least in my house
BDGR

 

[olly hondro]

This is a silly argument, because there is no upper limit on how much margin you can add. I could say that your roll cage on your truck isn't good enough, because clearly you don't know what you're doing and didn't add enough margin "like I would have", blah blah blah.

Engineering always has been to design the minimum amount that meets the requirements (which include a specific margin). "Old school engineers" didn't have the tools or science to see the world as clearly as it can be understood today, so they had to compensate by adding margin in ways they the guessed at, or learned through trial and error. It's a romantic idea to think that ended up being better, but it usually wasn't.

Like with your "firing rounds" example, have you seen how much ordnance had to be delivered to destroy targets? They use to level cities to try to hit one factory. Now we drop a single guided munition down the chimney. And we can shoot down an incoming round out of the air.

So I guess the "better" design for this seal driver is for it to be a solid cylinder. ANSYS told me! It's 1000% stronger. The thin lip still caves in though...

Yeah, I am a pretty romantic guy. Forty years of professional success. But I am ready to hand the torch over to you smart guys

 

[MarkM]

Very impressive. This 3D printing is getting better and better. On another note the proper word for a can of carbonated soft drinks is "Soda" or more properly "Tonic" and certainly not "Pop" Lol

You need to look at the 3D adapters to mount an H1 style rear view mirrors on the upper hinges of the HMMWV. The only ones out there are very high priced.

Mark

 

[Awesomeness]

You need to look at the 3D adapters to mount an H1 style rear view mirrors on the upper hinges of the HMMWV. The only ones out there are very high priced.

Have a link? I'm not very familiar with much of the HMMWV stuff.

 

[MarkM]

https://midwestmilitaryequipment.com/humvee-aftermarket-mirror-adapter-plates-set-of-2/Here you go...



Mark

 

[Awesomeness]

https://midwestmilitaryequipment.com/humvee-aftermarket-mirror-adapter-plates-set-of-2/Here you go...

Mark

Those are pretty simple. Adding the threaded inserts adds some cost (both to buy a quality insert, and installation labor & tools). The only hard part is getting a HMMWV door and a mirror to take accurate measurements from.

I'm kind of surprised a plastic part holds up there. If you bump a tree while offroading, or something, that mirror is going to put a LOT of force on that plastic part, trying to rip it apart. And for that price, you could probably make some of these mounts out of aluminum.