5 ton wrecker crane and winch in a deuce?

[TexAndy]

Is anyone reading the manuals anymore?

According to:

OP-CR53 Austin Western Manual

The M108 crane weighs 9000 pounds.

It also references a 5 ton crane but I think they're referring to an earlier one. M62

Which other manuals should I be looking at?

 

[m16ty]

I register the trucks I have for farm use and use Farm bureau insurance here in TN. I can insure a 5-ton for about $400 a year and tags run $200 per year. Although I have a CDL, they are not requried in TN for farm use.

I've always wanted a wrecker but not for towing. I've got a towbar that cost alot less . What I want one for is to use it like a crane and maybe some recovery.

 

[nhdiesel]

wow, not bad. What's the liability limit?

Keep in mind that is most likely non-commercial. As soon as you hook up to something that is not owned by you, your insurance would be void.

As for the 9000 lb. weight of the crane body, that is 1000 lbs. below the HIGHWAY limit for a Deuce. Add anything to it and you are over the limit.

If you only used it for light lifting in place, and made sure the outriggers were down, you would probably be fine. But you would never be able to tow anything.

It seems like an awful lot of effort to go through to keep from having to get a CDL. You essentially cannibalize 2 trucks.

Jim

 

[TexAndy]

Keep in mind that is most likely non-commercial. As soon as you hook up to something that is not owned by you, your insurance would be void.

As for the 9000 lb. weight of the crane body, that is 1000 lbs. below the HIGHWAY limit for a Deuce. Add anything to it and you are over the limit.

If you only used it for light lifting in place, and made sure the outriggers were down, you would probably be fine. But you would never be able to tow anything.

It seems like an awful lot of effort to go through to keep from having to get a CDL. You essentially cannibalize 2 trucks.

Jim

The M108 is the deuce and a half crane assembly. I believe they reinforced the deuce frame quite a bit to handle the crane and 8k pounds or so of lift capacity.

I'm not interested in hooking up to and toting other people's stuff. But I'd like to be able to at least drive it on the road a little so I can drive it over to a buddy's house who needs use of the crane or something.

What I'm worried about is this quote from another thread:

Welcome to the site. You might want to check out a thread I started about this very subject, called "Compliance with DOT???". You for sure need a Class A non-CDL to operate the truck-tractor. The test for the Class A CDL and Class A non-CDL is the same. In Texas, a 818 has to be registered with the Texas DOT because it has a GVWR over 26001 lbs, and since having written the "Compliance with DOT" thread, the law in Texas changed on Sept 1, requiring Federal (FMCSA) DOT registration as well. Hobby use is not exempted, period (I spoke with various DOT folks in Austin about this). A $750,000 liability policy is also required by federal law. The cheapest I could find was Progressive at $200/month. It's ugly, but it's the law. Fortunately we have the Former Military Registration which will save you huge $$$ over regular registration for a 60,000 GVW combination. Don't get caught hauling cars with farm tags!!!! DPS is on the lookout for those abuses.

It sure sounds like basic liability insurance ain't gonna cut it.

Also sounds like I'd have to register it twice. Once with TxDot and again with the Federal DoT...

 

[clinto]

I know this sounds crazy, but has anyone ever swapped an 816 wrecker bed, with crane and winch, onto a deuce?

Is it even doable? How hard would it be? How much does all that stuff weigh? Would it make the deuce overly top heavy? Would the deuce even be able to handle the weight and still have enough carrying capacity to actually lift anything?

If that would work, the military would have done it to save money so they could spend their budget on other whiz bang stuff. 5 ton trucks cost them more money than 2.5 ton trucks so if they could have hung wrecker bodies on 2.5 ton trucks, if they would have. I am not a mechanical engineer, but I suspect it would make it top heavy. Not to mention who underpowered it would be.

Just the sheer fact that the military made M60 and M108 models for such a short amount of time and never bothered to send them through the retrofit (A1, A2) programs) should tell you what the military thought about their effectiveness. Although what's effective for the military and what's effective for an enthusiast are two different things.

I realize you'd probably want to swap out the ldt-465 for the nhc-250, too just so it would have enough power to operate the crane and winch... and I really don't even know if the nhc-250 will fit in a deuce. Or if I'd have to swap both the transfer case and transmission along with it.

It won't fit-the Cummins is so much longer than the multifuel that the M809 series trucks actually have longer front clips in order to house the longer engine.

And the tranny/transfer swap won't work because the driveshafts are on different sides on M44 vs. M39/M809 series trucks.

This is from the standpoint of someone who just won an M816 and is starting to realize what a headache is involved with the legalities of owning something in CDL/DOT weight territory.

Reading these would have helped before you purchased it:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/48316-issues-owning-5-ton-wrecker.html

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/18689-how-do-you-wrecker-owners-insure-your-truck.html

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/43689-bottom-line-wrecker-insurance.html

I would just say "screw it" drive it around town the *maybe* half dozen times a year I'd planned to without the proper license/registration, but I'm either getting older and wiser or just spineless... but a wrecker strikes me as the kind of military vehicle the local txdot agents would stop and demand papers on when they saw it. I try to avoid those kinds of road use taxes as they're usually a bit stiffer than the ones you pay at the pump or registration office.

Anyone got a spare title to a parted out M108 laying around?

It is pertinent to be legal. A truck that big will definitely arouse the interest of the tax collectors.

clintogf and I are chasing a local M108-we'll let you know when we make some progress on it

Is anyone reading the manuals anymore?

Are you kidding? They don't even read the forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 98% of all the new threads are topics that already have an answer out there somewhere.

We might as well delete all the threads and just make the site a giant chatbox and whenever people have a question they can pop in chat, ask their question and leave.

 

[Recovry4x4]

If all you want to do it lift, do yourself a huge favor and sell the 816, buy another deuce and put a knuckleboom on it. I had an M543A2 many moons ago and I currently have an M108(A2). I've also had the pleasure of being around BFRs k-boom deuce and operating Cranetruck's K-boom deuce. The K-Booms can work circles around the military wreckers. Sure you sacrifice some capacity but you gain so much more. I prefer the M108 now-a-days over the 5 ton wreckers. Operation is simple, parts are common and I still have 8000# capacity. That's plenty for the hobbiest. My only real gripe is only 16' of stick. One day I'll build a loading dock I can park this thing on so I can change van bodies easier.

 

[jimmcld]

Interesting discussion, but I think the wrecker body would look a lot more cool if you mounted it on a Volkswagon.

 

[TexAndy]

If that would work, the military would have done it to save money so they could spend their budget on other whiz bang stuff. 5 ton trucks cost them more money than 2.5 ton trucks so if they could have hung wrecker bodies on 2.5 ton trucks, if they would have. I am not a mechanical engineer, but I suspect it would make it top heavy. Not to mention who underpowered it would be.

Just the sheer fact that the military made M60 and M108 models for such a short amount of time and never bothered to send them through the retrofit (A1, A2) programs) should tell you what the military thought about their effectiveness. Although what's effective for the military and what's effective for an enthusiast are two different things.

It won't fit-the Cummins is so much longer than the multifuel that the M809 series trucks actually have longer front clips in order to house the longer engine.

And the tranny/transfer swap won't work because the driveshafts are on different sides on M44 vs. M39/M809 series trucks.

Reading these would have helped before you purchased it:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/48316-issues-owning-5-ton-wrecker.html

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/18689-how-do-you-wrecker-owners-insure-your-truck.html

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/5-ton-up/43689-bottom-line-wrecker-insurance.html

It is pertinent to be legal. A truck that big will definitely arouse the interest of the tax collectors.

clintogf and I are chasing a local M108-we'll let you know when we make some progress on it



Are you kidding? They don't even read the forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 98% of all the new threads are topics that already have an answer out there somewhere.

We might as well delete all the threads and just make the site a giant chatbox and whenever people have a question they can pop in chat, ask their question and leave.

Thanks for the links. The only information about a DOT insurance requirement was from NDT, again... but he gave a different number that time and no link to a statute.

So sorry these questions are offensive to you.

I could just put a small crane on a deuce bed... but it wouldn't be a giant wrecker, then.

 

[Jake0147]

The reason a deuce is a non-CDL truck in the first place is the data tag that gives the maximum weight. According to CFR49 (upon which state laws are based) to use that data tag it must be a manufacturer's data tag. In the case of a deuce, this is a owner's data tag. (The owner was the US government, who makes the laws, but they are NOT the manufacturer...) I have never heard of it being refused at a DMV... HOWEVER!!! If you install a five ton wrecker body on a deuce and a half, you are well over that listed maximum weight. You ABSOLUTELY CAN safely and legally exceed that weight as far as DOT/DMV are concerned. Just as they do for any current vehicle that is modified, is missing it's markings, or has any other reason to question the markings that are applied to it. Disregard the questionable data plate, and add up the axle weights. But when you start stacking up components... Now you're driving a truck that's good in their eyes for 40,000 pounds. Back to CDL territory. Might as well have kept it on the five ton chassis.

 

[firefox]

Recovery4x4, supposedly my modified M108/XM211 has a 21 foot hook height.
It looks like they changed out a part of the boom to do this. I am currently in the process of making the hydraulics work. I have some pictures but cant get at them right now. If you are interested, let me know and I'll try to dig them up.
Bruce

 

[nhdiesel]

You ABSOLUTELY CAN safely and legally exceed that weight as far as DOT/DMV are concerned.

This depends on the state. VT may be like that, NH is far from it. You absolutely can NOT exceed the MFG's rated capacity. The state has the data for most vehicles in their system. If you disagree with those numbers, you better have a factory data plate showing the GVW for a DOT officer to see.

I happened to have a Dodge 2500 Cummins diesel pickup. Being the diesel, Dodge used all 3500 parts for the 2500. Depending on the options, the 2500 may or may not have the overload leaf pack, otherwise they are the same truck- same frame, same springs and suspension, same brakes, same E-rated tires (as a single wheel 3500), same-same. But I would never be able to legally haul the same load as a 3500 because I can't change the weight. I know people who have run into this problem while restoring trucks. They can't take a 1-ton Ford and toss a clean 1/2 ton cab (identical cabs) on because the factory data plate would show the wrong info. If you remove the data plate and try to swap them, you can be fined for tampering with it.

Now, I won't get into ways of skirting around some of this...there are always ways for everything. I'm just posting the legal details of it.

Who knows what the laws are where TexAndy is.

Jim

 

[TexAndy]

This depends on the state. VT may be like that, NH is far from it. You absolutely can NOT exceed the MFG's rated capacity. The state has the data for most vehicles in their system. If you disagree with those numbers, you better have a factory data plate showing the GVW for a DOT officer to see.

I happened to have a Dodge 2500 Cummins diesel pickup. Being the diesel, Dodge used all 3500 parts for the 2500. Depending on the options, the 2500 may or may not have the overload leaf pack, otherwise they are the same truck- same frame, same springs and suspension, same brakes, same E-rated tires (as a single wheel 3500), same-same. But I would never be able to legally haul the same load as a 3500 because I can't change the weight. I know people who have run into this problem while restoring trucks. They can't take a 1-ton Ford and toss a clean 1/2 ton cab (identical cabs) on because the factory data plate would show the wrong info. If you remove the data plate and try to swap them, you can be fined for tampering with it.

Now, I won't get into ways of skirting around some of this...there are always ways for everything. I'm just posting the legal details of it.

Who knows what the laws are where TexAndy is.

Jim

Have you got Mr. Who's phone number on hand?

 

[nhdiesel]

I would go down to your local DMV office, and your local insurance offices and get the answers from where it counts. Don't confuse them with too much info, just tell them what the truck would be when it's done (don't tell them you are doing anything custom) and get their word on it.

I know from dealing with our own laws, it doesn't even matter what's in the books, it's what the police and DOT thinks. If you go by the book, you can always fight your way out of it in court, but it gets costly. If you do what the DOT officers tell you, you shouldn't even get ticketed in the first place.

Jim

 

[Stretch44875]

Recovery4x4, supposedly my modified M108/XM211 has a 21 foot hook height.
It looks like they changed out a part of the boom to do this. I am currently in the process of making the hydraulics work. I have some pictures but cant get at them right now. If you are interested, let me know and I'll try to dig them up.
Bruce

Stock boom goes to 20 feet high, because of how high the crane sits on the truck. Just used mine to move furniture to the second floor of the house via the porch roof. Post up some pics and should be able to tell what's different.

5 ton wreckers aren't much better on reach, think they have 2 more feet. They are much better suited for lift towing heavy trucks.

M108 is reinforced, and rated for 3,500lbs payload on the road, and 0 off road. Weight is 20,000lbs empty. I've lift towed my deuce with it, and it works, but not sure how well it would work long distance. And all the stock ones are gassers.

If you are lifting stuff around the yard, K-boom is the way to go. But I like having the option of lift towing.

 

[runk]

TexAndy,
I want an 816 too ! Don't need it, don't have anyplace to keep it, don't really have time to keep it running, but I waaaannnt one ! My research matches NDT's, including the recent law change about TxDOT and Fed. DOT registration, but neither of those are that expensive, just more paperwork.

To help get your head around the expenses, you need to go out to lunch with the right people. I've got friends who race cars ($600 for the tires for a couple of weekends at the track), fly airplanes ($200 bucks an hour and a couple hours a month to just keep an IFR license current !), skydive, ski (priced out a ski week for a family of 4 recently ?), own beat up old sailboats ($200 - $400 a month just for the slips). All of them would laugh at our complaints about the costs of our old trucks. The question you need to ask yourself, is what else could you do with the money that will make you as happy?

I know that everybody at work can tell when I've driven the deuce in that morning, even if they don't hear me pull into the lot, because I'll actually smile before noon. If traffic is bad on the way home, I'll take a detour and drive around, explore a road I've never been down before, and not need 3 beers before I can be civil to the family. MV are great, and for me, absolutely worth the cost in time and money.

So, why haven't I bought a honking great big 5-ton wrecker yet ?
1) The no defensive driving with a CDL problem. I need to go a couple more years without a speeding ticket (I'm actively working on the problem...), before I'm willing to give up that option. (It is amazing what a speeding ticket on your record does to your insurance rates !)
2) I have used up all the yard I'm allowed (and, to be truthful, want to sacrifice). So until I have the money to get the containers, deuce parking spot and some of the back driveway replaced with a big enough multi-story garage workshop, no more giant trucks.

Good luck with your options...
(And if any of you in the south central part of the country have an M108 for sale, I don't want to know !)

 

[TexAndy]

someone else mentioned just getting temporary tags any time I want to move it.

In your research, did you happen to see if a temporary tagged vehicle needed to be DOT and TXDOT registered in order to be kosher on the road?

Also, can you confirm what NDT was saying about minimum of 750k liability insurance?

 

[Burgerboy13]

This depends on the state. VT may be like that, NH is far from it. You absolutely can NOT exceed the MFG's rated capacity. The state has the data for most vehicles in their system. If you disagree with those numbers, you better have a factory data plate showing the GVW for a DOT officer to see.

I happened to have a Dodge 2500 Cummins diesel pickup. Being the diesel, Dodge used all 3500 parts for the 2500. Depending on the options, the 2500 may or may not have the overload leaf pack, otherwise they are the same truck- same frame, same springs and suspension, same brakes, same E-rated tires (as a single wheel 3500), same-same. But I would never be able to legally haul the same load as a 3500 because I can't change the weight. I know people who have run into this problem while restoring trucks. They can't take a 1-ton Ford and toss a clean 1/2 ton cab (identical cabs) on because the factory data plate would show the wrong info. If you remove the data plate and try to swap them, you can be fined for tampering with it.

Now, I won't get into ways of skirting around some of this...there are always ways for everything. I'm just posting the legal details of it.

Who knows what the laws are where TexAndy is.

Jim

Some states just go by the axel weight rating. Which makes a lot more sense. Thats how Hotshot drivers are able to pull 20,000+ lbs with their 1 ton dually.

 

[nhdiesel]

Actually many states just go by what you want to register it for. As long as you are willing to pay for the extra weight, they don't care what the vehicle is rated for. Do you think the DOT knows what axle is in a truck? Larger commercial trucks usually have the weight stamped into the axle, but hotshot drivers drive trucks with very little info on the axle itself. Some of us hobbyists can ID an axle by looking at it, but we are talking the DOT. Pull in with a Dodge...do you have a Dana 70? 80?

Jim

 

[runk]

As I understand the Texas law, over 26,000 lbs GCVW is not eligible for the 1 month temporary tags. You have to get a 1 trip permit. It is unclear how many times you can get a temporary tag or permit for the same vehicle, I don't think they track them, so you might be ok until the ladies at the tax office started to recognize you. But, all of the temporary tags and permits carry the same requirements for insurance and CDL as the applicable permanent registration (they will ask for your proof of insurance to get the tags or permits).

I didn't look into the DOT registration requirement for the temporary tags, but the DOT numbers seemed like mostly a paperwork issue, not much of an expense compared to insurance.

I didn't ask what the actual liability limits were, just asked the insurance company for the approximate cost for the required insurance. If you have the cash, I think you could also buy a bond instead of liability insurance, but I think the fees for the bond may exceed the insurance cost for a single truck.

On the farm tag CDL exemptions, you do know there are a lot of restrictions ? Limited to (I think) 175 miles from the farm, only ag products or machinery. Talking to a retired DPS truck enforcement officer, if they see a heavy truck with farm tags that they don't recognize, they will often pull it over to check. If you are in violation, I belive it is an out of service offense, so you will be looking at big towing bill, on top of all the fines and hassle.

Also, as I understand Texas law, it is all based on the manufacture's stated weights here.

How about adding a stove and a toliet and turning it into an RV ? (If you try that, I'd think I'd like to come watch you try and explain it to the tax office ladies....)