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6BT swap questions

Mrgior31513

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Finally back on my 5 ton project. Between buying some off-grid Az property and having a kid it's been sitting for a few years. Have my 6BT almost built, was wondering if anyone has any experience in swapping that with matching one up to the Spicer 6453 or close. I know it's the STD #2 bellhousing, but I'm still trying to sort out the flywheel. Sure it won't be too bad to source parts, as they used the 6BT in tons of industrial applications.

The engine flywheel for STD #2 comes in several variations for the starter location, don't think it much matters for my application, and I still have to figure out the flywheel and matching starter. Any input would be welcome.
 
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Jbulach

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I’m sure it’s been done, but cant think of anyone one here thats has. I know it’s been discussed and debated quite a bit, about how a 5ton is too much truck for a B motor.
 

Mrgior31513

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I’m sure it’s been done, but cant think of anyone one here thats has. I know it’s been discussed and debated quite a bit, about how a 5ton is too much truck for a B motor.
A stock 6BT has about 215hp at 2,500rmp and 420 torque at 1,600.
You can push those motors to about 800-1k hp before you start to lose reliability.

It has forged pistons, I've put the Hamilton 168/208 cam in it for slightly increased hp and because it increases the spooling of the turbo at lower rpm's.
I am starting with 5x.012 injectors and I'm going to put a moderate turbo in it. Conservatively I'll be pushing about 340-380hp, and I can swap out injectors and bump it up to 5-550hp without blinking.

Seeing as how it's not a hot rod, and I'm trying to keep from pushing more power to the drive train than necessary, I'm starting small.

Considering they put the multi-fuel engines in these same trucks, I have no doubts that this motor will at the very least compare to the Mack, and most likely out perform it.

1950's Diesels are nothing compared to modern ones.
 

Mrgior31513

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I swapped in a 6BT with an AT545 as a married pair into my bobbed deuce. Never separated them.
I would have preferred a transmission swap at the same time, but mine has a PTO w/ winch in the front, and it's a pretty large price jump for the project to do that as well.
Is that a stock 6BT? How does it compare to the multifuel in pushing that truck around?
 

Jbulach

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A stock 6BT has about 215hp at 2,500rmp and 420 torque at 1,600.
You can push those motors to about 800-1k hp before you start to lose reliability.

It has forged pistons, I've put the Hamilton 168/208 cam in it for slightly increased hp and because it increases the spooling of the turbo at lower rpm's.
I am starting with 5x.012 injectors and I'm going to put a moderate turbo in it. Conservatively I'll be pushing about 340-380hp, and I can swap out injectors and bump it up to 5-550hp without blinking.

Seeing as how it's not a hot rod, and I'm trying to keep from pushing more power to the drive train than necessary, I'm starting small.

Considering they put the multi-fuel engines in these same trucks, I have no doubts that this motor will at the very least compare to the Mack, and most likely out perform it.

1950's Diesels are nothing compared to modern ones.
Yep, and thats how the one side of the debate, that I normally don’t participate in, always goes. You need to focus on the torque numbers of the two engines. Especially if you add 5-10 ton payload on your truck with a 10 ton tare. All the sudden your hoped up but dependable 5.9 isn’t going to be as happy. IIRC @hanksduece is bobed, so you’ll be comparing grapes to grapefruits. Just for reference, my 5 ton has a C motor in it that is just barely adequate. In all fairness it is stock, and I know your B can be built to run circles around it… Good luck, and hope you prove me wrong.
 

Mrgior31513

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Yep, and thats how the one side of the debate, that I normally don’t participate in, always goes. You need to focus on the torque numbers of the two engines. Especially if you add 5-10 ton payload on your truck with a 10 ton tare. All the sudden your hoped up but dependable 5.9 isn’t going to be as happy. IIRC @hanksduece is bobed, so you’ll be comparing grapes to grapefruits. Just for reference, my 5 ton has a C motor in it that is just barely adequate. In all fairness it is stock, and I know your B can be built to run circles around it… Good luck, and hope you prove me wrong.
I've done my homework, for sure. Comparing the estimated/potential hp and torque output of this modified engine should have it well above the Mack, and better than the multifuel at bare stock. I've specifically built it for lower end power, so the 1400rpm stock torque band compared to the 1200rpm band of Macks/Continentals coupled with the increased power should have it optimally tuned for this application. Also, not built for a towing/work rig. It's an RV conversion/toy. May tow a trailer with it eventually, or a car, but it shouldn't be a problem. If I was going for a workhorse I would have started with the newer 5 tons. I just wound up with this because it was cheaper than the duece and a halfs in the area at the time lol.
 

HanksDeuce

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Is that a stock 6BT? How does it compare to the multifuel in pushing that truck around?
My 6BT is completely stock from a fueling standpoint. The extra 170 lb-ft of torque with the 6BT is very noticeable compared to the multifuel.

Below is a link to a comparison chart of my original M35A2 vs after bobbing it (including engine comparisons).
https://hanksdeuce.com/M35A2_comparison.htm
 

Mrgior31513

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Sounds like a fun project jeepsinker also swapped a 6bt and has well documented it on here and YouTube.
It would have been easier to find parts for that swap, but I think I have it sorted. The Spicer 3053A from the M35A2 is a SAE #3 bellhousing, the Spicer 6453 from the M54A1 is SAE #2 bellhousing, so it's a different hunt for parts, same book but different page.

I think I have all the parts sorted save the pilot bearing, but I will need to pull the motor out for those specs. May spend some more time looking them up, but that sealed bearing the easiest, I can check a standard bearing for basic dimensions on that motor and spec out the center to match the input shaft. The flywheel, clutch and matching starter are the biggest concern and not very much reliable information on parts numbers. I found one conversion chart on the way back machine, but its not right on some of the parts (like giving one bellhousing number that is SAE #3 instead of #2) so I'm going to have to hope the starters listed on it match up with the other bellhousings that are right. @Big Mike's Motor Pool was nice enough to look up and send me the specs for the bolt spacing on the clutch, so I'm going to check that against the flywheel I have ordered, but I'm fairly confident it's going to match. When I get finished and have it running, I'm going to put the parts list up on this site and a few others.
 

Mrgior31513

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Few updates:
Mack pulled, clutch was different than what I thought it was.

I didn't have the clutch figured out, but should have it sorted now. Mid America Clutch Co. has some really knowledgeable people working there. Talked to Scott Schneider, and he knew all about the transmission, flywheel and existing clutch, he was able to help me out. He knew the spacing on the Macks flywheel offhand, which says plenty. Just wanted to throw out that resource for anyone that might come across this.

For the 14" clutch, going with a spacer and double clutch plate push style to match the clutch on the Mack. I guess the 14" single disk would be lacking on the torque specifications, and they really should have the double clutch plates for the heavier trucks.

The dimensions Scott gave me for the setup he's getting going for me were right on the money for the clutch protrusion of the Mack compared to the flywheel face depth of the cummins with the SAE #2 flywheel housing and flywheel that I have for it. Once I get the clutch installed and a dry fit done, I will post the numbers for all of these parts.

Still have to get the pilot bearing, and now I have the access necessary, so will get that soon too.

Probably going to pull out the Macks clutch again after work today and make a tool to start pulling the dimensions off of the motor mounts on the Mack to get those going.
 
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264charlie

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It sounds like a stellar build, and you already have your mind made up. I believe an 800HP 1k HP 5.9 with stock reliability only exists online. The 466 is a monster of a motor compared to a 5.9, bigger and stronger in every way, and pullers run the at crazy HPs, too, but none of them would do it in a plow tractor running loaded all day. Boats are an excellent place to look for maximum HP as they have unlimited cooling. You get to see the maximum real-life reliability HP for most engines. I believe the P pump 5.9s topped out at around 350HP in boats. Another thing to note is that even a 5.9 at 400HP/1000ftlb, the maximum HP dodge in running in a 6.7, it will make much less torque than the Cummins 250 until around 1600 rpm or more.
 
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Mrgior31513

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It sounds like a stellar build, and you already have your mind made up. I believe an 800HP 1k HP 5.9 with stock reliability only exists online. The 466 is a monster of a motor compared to a 5.9, bigger and stronger in every way, and pullers run the at crazy HPs, too, but none of them would do it in a plow tractor running loaded all day. Boats are an excellent place to look for maximum HP as they have unlimited cooling. You get to see the maximum real-life reliability HP for most engines. I believe the P pump 5.9s topped out at around 350HP in boats. Another thing to note is that even a 5.9 at 400HP/1000ftlb, the maximum HP dodge in running in a 6.7, it will make much less torque than the Cummins 250 until around 1600 rpm or more.
I do have my mind made up.

A bit of a caveat: I never made the claim that a 1k hp 5.9 cummins would have the same reliability as stock. I said that you can push them to 800-1k hp before they start loosing reliability. I would say getting 250-300k+ out of a highly modified engine is quite impressive, and I would call that a pretty reliable engine. Pushing these engines to 500hp has a long list of people getting 5-600k++ miles off of the engine with minimal work like replacing things like injectors. I would say that is an extremely reliable engine. An unmodified 5.9 that's taken care of that can get over a million miles: I would say that's an insanely reliable engine.

As far as boats and 'unlimited cooling', it seems like you're really talking about Full Duty Cycle. Very few engines will run full bore at stock and get 100% duty cycle. I'm unfamiliar with the boating application of 5.9's, but trying to compare this specific application to automotive really isn't an apples to apples comparison. I really don't know the point of going into all that, nor do I know the actual specs on it.

I'm going to use this truck to cruise around in. Maybe tow a lighter trailer, under 12k. The top speed of the truck itself is about 55mph. It's being modified into an RV, so it will not be hauling things. It's not like it's going to be seeing full duty cycle. It's going into an application that mostly came with a Multifuel engine that is VERY gutless. Turning up the fuel screws gives a 5.9 more power than the multifuel had. A 5.9 should be able to push that truck at an estimated 300HP full duty cycle easily. Modifying it more, and being able to get there faster and maintain the same thing easier: I'm really not anticipating this engine is gonig to be working all that hard. If it does I can always go from there. It will have the same radiator as the Mack, so it will have a lot more cooling than a standard 5.9, and they tend to do pretty well pushing much, much more than what I'm trying to do with it.

Also, I alread stated: I put a towing cam in it from Hamilton that will effecitvely lower the torque band in the engine and put it more in line with the Mack and the Multifuel torque bands. It helps the turbo to spool at lower RPM's, helps to lower EGT's, improves economy and adds a bit of extra horsepower when coupled with other modifications such as injectors and larger turbo. I'm going to go with a larger turbo, as that is where the lower EGT's will really kick in, and it will get a bit more out of that lowered torque band.
 

264charlie

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I own a few 6.7s, so I'm a fan. I think an application where you are not using the power will work great, and I can't wait to see it. I've seen far too many fall into a lot of the hype of a 5.9, thinking it's bigger than it is. No cam will move the torque to the 855 range. If so, you'd see 5.9s in every semitruck.

I've considered going with a 6v92 in my truck because I like the sound.
 

Mrgior31513

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I own a few 6.7s, so I'm a fan. I think an application where you are not using the power will work great, and I can't wait to see it. I've seen far too many fall into a lot of the hype of a 5.9, thinking it's bigger than it is. No cam will move the torque to the 855 range. If so, you'd see 5.9s in every semitruck.
What's the torque band on the LTD465 look like compared to a stock 6BT?
 

264charlie

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What's the torque band on the LTD465 look like compared to a stock 6BT?
I'm not sure what's under the curve.

I believe the highest factory rating on a 6BT (5.9L) was around 230HP @2500 and 420ftlb @1600. The LDS-465(7.8) had a rating of 195@2800 and 425ftlb@2000.

I've got an LDS I'm pulling from my truck, and I just found six piston kits for cheap. Perhaps I should balance it, put a modern turbo on it, and see what it will do. This has me thinking it will pull 300HP without much trouble. The HP killer in the MF version is the 22:1 comp pistons to allow burning gas; I'd assume one would need to find a commercial engine if you wanted the most power, but burning your waste oil is still somewhat remarkable in my book.
 

Mrgior31513

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I've got an LDS I'm pulling from my truck, and I just found six piston kits for cheap. Perhaps I should balance it, put a modern turbo on it, and see what it will do. This has me thinking it will pull 300HP without much trouble. The HP killer in the MF version is the 22:1 comp pistons to allow burning gas; I'd assume one would need to find a commercial engine if you wanted the most power, but burning your waste oil is still somewhat remarkable in my book.
I would be careful of trying to push more power out of that motor without limiting the types of fuels you use in it. They are severely detuned specifically to allow such a wide range of fuel. I would be worried about blowing head gaskets with more boost, and I'm not sure it's worth the effort unless you're trying to avoid 'other than diesel' fuels.

Down the road I wouldn't mind getting a multifuel duece and bobbing it to have some fun in. One of those on some 50" wheels would be tons of fun out in the desert. Burn used motor oils and such having fun? Oh yeah. The kind of driving I do most of the time for fun doesn't include speed lol
 

swbradley1

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If you had ever been to one of the Haspin rallys you wouldn't think burning waste motor is that remarkable. Throw a gallon jug on a bonfire. ;-)

My Brother took his Dodge with a 6BT to a guy in Columbus, IN to have him tune it. The guy worked at the Cummins plant locally and had written a lot of docs on the engine. I think he tweaked to around 300HP with just stuff you can do without opening the engine up or replacing pieces (turbo).

My Brother could not believe the difference when the guy was done.
 
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