.

[Bandit02]

I'll just stick the shifter handle out the back window.

I have more homework, the Eaton Solo clutch may not be a single disk like I thought, which may be OK. Also something about hydraulic and self adjusting play or don't play well together?

15.5" Eaton solo clutches are dual disk. I installed about a jillion of them at Freightliner throughout the years, good for 2250 tq. They're made to run exclusively with hydro. Never seen them run with any other setup. The Eaton easy pedal clutches all ran with mechanical linkage, from what I've seen with 10 years at a dealership.

The solo problem was they stopped self adjusting after awhile and the clutch would create more then 1/2" between the clutch brake and the throw-out bearing, making it harder over time to get into gear. Solo's adjust when you clutch in on them with normal use, most truckers don't clutch except for 1st/2nd gear & reverse so the mass majority I replaced under warranty had less then 100k miles on them. You can manually reset the clutch so it can adjust again but 99% of the time it was seized anyways. Solo's have a wear indicator so if you keep with regular inspection you can kinda predict the end-of-life of the clutch.

Easy-pedal vs. solo the easy is way cheaper.

One thing too, replacing a 1 piece clutch brake with a solo/hydro setup is a PITA, use a 2 piece

 

[74M35A2]

Good info, thanks. All of the same apply to a 14" SAE #2 clutch? Any preferred or avoid clutch brands?

 

[74M35A2]

More clutch confusion. There are flat plate and cup type flywheels. Each takes a specific clutch. Great. I definitely have more homework here to figure this out. My choices open up if I am able to use a 15.5" flywheel inside an SAE #2 clutch housing, which is not the norm from what I little understand. If anybody has input here, it is appreciated. I'm not buying something unless I mostly understand it. I need to take apart the spare 8.3L core engine I have with the 6 speed manual on it and look at that flywheel, since that is what I intend to use.

I did order a new Eaton/Fuller SAE #2 cast iron clutch housing for the trans, and it uses a hydraulic actuator only. I also ordered an all-in-one hydraulic clutch master cylinder, reservoir, and pedal assembly from a 2012 Freightliner Cascadia. Grabbed a complete Eaton/Fuller gasket set also to change the clutch housing on the trans.

 

[74M35A2]

Ugh! So there are 14" flat flywheels, 14" cup (pot) flywheels, and 15.5" flat flywheels of several inner bore diameters, I think. 14" and 15.5" being the clutch friction disc diameter. 14" is SAE #2 and 15.5" is SAE #1. On the 14" clutches, the clutch is designed for either a cup (pot) type flywheel with 6 replaceable drive pins, or a different clutch for use with a flat flywheel.

Hopefully the flat and pot type flywheels simply interchange, and the SAE #2 auto trans flywheel housing is same as a manual, because it is looking like the higher torque capacity 14" clutches are only available in the cup/pot configuration, and not the flat flywheel configuration.

I have more studying and phone calls to make on this next week. If there are any experts reading this, the welcome mat is out for your input. I think my understanding is correct so far? Thanks.

Trans input shaft is 2" OD with 10 splines. Two SAE #2 transmission clutch housings on order, one mechanical and one hydraulic. Both super cheap to dual path this.

 

[Bandit02]

Good info, thanks. All of the same apply to a 14" SAE #2 clutch? Any preferred or avoid clutch brands?

I've done one 14" in a kenworth, it was a easy-pedal type. Brands, stick with Eaton, lots of support and every truck shop has access to readily available parts. I know there other brands but no experience with them, dealership I worked at used Eaton and nothing else.

 

[Bandit02]

If you run a hydro setup you MUST run a solo clutch with it. I made a mistake of replacing a solo with a easy-pedal in a cascadia because I figured it didn't matter as it wasn't a warranty job (solos are 75 lbs heavier then the easy-pedal) and it wouldn't engage as soon as I rolled it out of the shop. The plates weren't backwards so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work but solos are made to run with hydro setup. Just FYI.

I "think" it's because the cross-shaft on a traditional trans is way smaller then the thick cross-shaft fork found on the hydro setup and it got stuck against the throw out bearing causing the clutch to partially disengage.

 

[74M35A2]

If I want the 14" 1400ft-lb rated unit (double disc?), then it seems I need a cup/pot type of flywheel. Cummins p/n for this is 3910542. Hydraulic slave is mostly pull-type release bearing only, so clutch needs to be pull type also, which the majority of the big league stuff seems to be anyway.

From what little I understand, the issue with using a hydraulic release on a manual adjust clutch, is that over time, you are unable to feel when the clutch needs to be adjusted, since the hydro self adjusts at every pedal release, the pedal will always feel the same, even when the clutch is falling out of adjustment and nearing its slip point.

I think...... Still have no idea about any of this or what I am doing.

The 2005 RV ISL-400 I am getting is rated at 400hp/1200ft-lb stock, and supposedly goes to 450hp/1250ft-lb with an aftermarket device to further raise the common rail fuel pressure (Digi CRTV). So, any clutch rated over 1250ft-lb, we're good. Wish it to fit a 14" fly to be able to use my existing SAE #2 flywheel housing and not have to go to SAE #1/15.5" which would drive different rear motor mounts. So far looks doable on paper. Will have $1000 into clutch and flywheel alone though. Ugh! Better sell some more 8.3L serpentine A/C compressor brackets.

 

[74M35A2]

Only open issue now seems to be that when using a hydraulic release, you are "supposed" to use a self-adjusting clutch. It does not appear mandatory though. It seems that if you stay up on clutch adjustments, it could be OK. Eaton does not say you "MUST" use a self-adjusting clutch, they just strongly advise it, because in a manual adjusted clutch, once the pedal hits the floor and the trans grinds during shifts, the driver will have the clutch adjusted. With hydraulic, the actuation will always self adjust, but not the clutch itself, if using a manually adjusted clutch.

So, I will be doing something not exactly recommended, due to the nature of the combo I am putting together, but, from a technical perspective, it should be OK. The recommended clutch adjustment intervals are at every 4 years for how I am currently driving the truck right now anyway.

 

[grendel]

Yah, you won't be driving this 300K miles a year...

 

[74M35A2]

If this works, I may be. Here's a teaser:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LpoS7cI4c64

 

[Jason O]

74 -

Its great to see someone actually doing this swap! I never took it any farther than crawling under various semi trucks with a tape measure. I have a feeling that w/o moving the transfer case, your front prop shaft will clear (until the axle up front articulates)

One idea I had (especially if you're going hydraulic clutch) was to clock the entire trans one hole to the right when mounting it to the motor. It looks like the SAE 2 pattern is symmetrical, allowing clocking to raise the drivers side of the Fuller trans a bit and gain clearance for the prop shaft.

There would be other issues (trans oil level with one counter-shaft higher than the other, bending the shifter back to vertical).

I know, it sounds like a dumb idea, but it might get you the clearance you need for the driveshaft.

I wish you sucess with the project!

Those last 3 ratios on your 12513 (1.17 / 1.00 /0.87) will be a nice match for these trucks.

Jason

 

[74M35A2]

Thanks Jason. I'm not sure it will work. It "should", and I am going to proceed until I hit a wall with it. More than a few have wanted their M939's to be manual trans, so I hope in the end, I can simply list the necessary items or part numbers used to do so, so others don't have to spend so much time researching it.

The manual trans can be had cheap, and if using a lower HP engine, you have more clutch choices. I'm using a higher HP engine and full size trans, but want to stay SAE 2 as to be able to use my stock rear motor mounts. So, it is kind of a bastardized configuration, yet parts available to do so. Any more engine torque above 1400ft-lbs and one would have to go SAE 1. Doable, just need different rear mounts and to maybe redrill the frame for them.

I was not going to do this trans swap until my auto failed. But with the upcoming engine swap, nothing else holds the trans in, so this will be the best time to get it done.

I know I am driving everybody nuts posting every step of my thoughts.

Interesting idea on the trans. It would be option B behind lowering the t-case. I'm going to remove the front prop shaft before lowering the new setup into the frame. So, I don't see why it would not fit and get driving on its own. Only 2 open items would be hydro PTO and front prop shaft. The big trans has a PTO window off the direct bottom of the case, and I could just use a clutched belt driven one on the engine if need be. Honestly I like that better from a control perspective anyway. If front prop clears, we're home free. It just may with the first gen carrier bearing I am using which gave it more angle. Using this, the shaft out of the t-case now does not articulate with the front suspension. It is fixed position. That could prove to be a win in this case.

I need to test run the replacement engine on a pallet first, and also have a 20 mile minibike ride 3rd weekend in May that I take my truck and shifter kart to, but this should kick off just after that.


Thanks.

 

[Jason O]

I looked into installing one of the Fuller 6 speeds, but the ratios weren't any better than the auto (the jump between the top gears was even worse).

Somebody is always the "trail-blazer", does all the research, makes the costly mistakes, etc, resulting in an easier project for the rest of us when we copy-cat the results.

Tag...you're it!

 

[74M35A2]

Once done, I'll condense key points down into a short recipe and post that as its own thread with needed items and lessons learned.

No further updates until Friday afternoon when I pick up the ISL RV engine, that will be on the Power Surge thread. After that test runs on the ground OK, then will acquire the needed flywheel, clutch, clutch brake, hydraulic clutch slave cylinder (possibly the air boosted one), and swap the trans clutch housing to the #2 hydraulic and start test fitting this stuff together on the floor. I want to use my stock flywheel housing, so I have to wait until the 6CTA engine is out so I can steal it and then mate the trans to the ISL engine. New rear main seal while it is out and apart. Need to flip oil pan to front sump too amd steal my 6CT pickup tube. Possibly accessory drive also, TBD.

I'm going to do the engine/trans swap at my work on a Saturday with a 10,000lb forklift, and then tow the truck home to finalize all the install items since it should not be there on a Monday work day. ISL is electronic so a small amount of wiring, and also need a charge air cooler installed, so a short amount of time needed on those few items, it will not drive home under its own power, but hopefully not too long after.

Next need to study trans output shaft yolks, looks like Eaton has a few to chose from if the included one is not a match.

 

[simp5782]

Once done, I'll condense key points down into a short recipe and post that as its own thread with needed items and lessons learned.

No further updates until Friday afternoon when I pick up the ISL RV engine, that will be on the Power Surge thread. After that test runs on the ground OK, then will acquire the needed flywheel, clutch, clutch brake, hydraulic clutch slave cylinder (possibly the air boosted one), and swap the trans clutch housing to the #2 hydraulic and start test fitting this stuff together on the floor. I want to use my stock flywheel housing, so I have to wait until the 6CTA engine is out so I can steal it and then mate the trans to the ISL engine. New rear main seal while it is out and apart. Need to flip oil pan to front sump too amd steal my 6CT pickup tube. Possibly accessory drive also, TBD.

I'm going to do the engine/trans swap at my work on a Saturday with a 10,000lb forklift, and then tow the truck home to finalize all the install items since it should not be there on a Monday work day. ISL is electronic so a small amount of wiring, and also need a charge air cooler installed, so a short amount of time needed on those few items, it will not drive home under its own power, but hopefully not too long after.

Next need to study trans output shaft yolks, looks like Eaton has a few to chose from if the included one is not a match.

If you are pulling all that crap out go ahead and get your Bedliner gun ready and get to spraying insulation and sound deadning material going. Makes it easier.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[74M35A2]

Good idea.

Ants in my pants, could not wait. Ordered flywheel, hydraulic slave cylinder, newer shift knob and 13sp bezel for it, 13sp shift pattern dash card, updated range selector valve, gasket set, etc. Trying to hold out for the clutch until I actually get the engine, but may not be able to. Awaiting pics of replacement ISL engine, was just removed.

 

[74M35A2]

Clutch housing showed up today. Cast iron piece, new and direct from Eaton, only $200 and free shipping. This is required to mount a Roadranger trans to an SAE #2 engine flywheel housing. I could have switched the engine flywheel housing to SAE #1, but I would have needed new rear mounts. This housing only accepts a hydraulic clutch actuator (slave/servo). There is another housing that does the same adaptation and uses the traditional mechanical release. I bought that one also, used for $100, they had it mis-marked on the ad but gave it to me for that price. It is not here yet, and I hope to not have to use it. If my hydraulic setup works, and one of you want to follow suit but with mechanical clutch actuation, it is yours for the $100 I paid for it, if it ever arrives.

Each day gets us closer to a load of Coors from Texarkana...

 

[infidel got me]

I'm thirsty!!

 

[74M35A2]

Flywheel and modern shift knob, playing soon at theaters near you.

 

[infidel got me]

Now that you have the shifter, you can sit in your driveway and make noises like your driving and shifting!!!!