8.3 turbo discussion

[Csm Davis]

And this is what grendel bought to go on his, I am jealous.

injectors went out today to get an upgrade... and I said what the heck and bought a new turbo:

• Twin hydrodynamic journal bearings
• Extended tip technology compressor wheel
• Twin scroll turbine housing
• Adjustable compressor and turbine housing orientation​

• Compressor cover recirculation grooves

Turbo Part Number: 177275​

Comp. Wheel OD: 3.60
Comp. Wheel Inducer Diameter: 2.60(in.) 66(mm)
Turbine Wheel OD: 3.14(in.) 80(mm)
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 2.89(in.) 73(mm)
Turbine A/R: .91
Cartridge Assembly: 176646
Service Kit: 318393

With the electric lift pump, timing and fuel mods, along with new plumbing for intake and exhaust, we should be right about 410hp.

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[grendel]

Okay discoball I drug this over here where it belongs. I understand that the turbo that grendel bought is a floating sleeve bearing and I still want to know if the ball bearings and water cooling would help on a 400 HP 8.3L. These turbos are very large so I would think that the ball bearings would be a great addition to help keep everything where it should be. And as to water cooling the center sections I thought it was to keep from cooking the bearings not help EGT. Am I missing something?


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He's sort of right:

http://www.agpturbo.com/blog/the-borg-warner-s300-sxe-an-inside-look/

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-airwerks/borgwarner-s300sx-fmw-turbo.html

Ball bearing on one side, 6 pad thrust bearing on the other.

What Borg Warner has to say:

http://www.turbos.borgwarner.com/files/pdf/efr_turbo_technical_brief.pdf

I did my research

 

[grendel]

http://www.theboostlab.com/store/product_images/uploaded_images/s300-66-compressor-map.jpg

 

[74M35A2]

Everybody is fine, some of my best friends in this thread. Let us know how it works. Holset is supposed to be lagging in technology compared to BW, so we're staying tuned....

 

[Csm Davis]

Everybody is fine, some of my best friends in this thread. Let us know how it works. Holset is supposed to be lagging in technology compared to BW, so we're staying tuned....

Awe ain't it sweet boy's discoball says we are his besties.

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[dieseltech21]

Read other the thread here and interesting ideas thrown around. I am looking into buying an m923 but long story short my plans are to do a full off-road build and am looking at a turbo upgrade for lower rpm use. Any ideas as to a larger single or smallish twin setups?

 

[71DeuceAK]

Definitely curious how your full off road build turns out, what all will you be doing?

 

[74M35A2]

Read other the thread here and interesting ideas thrown around. I am looking into buying an m923 but long story short my plans are to do a full off-road build and am looking at a turbo upgrade for lower rpm use. Any ideas as to a larger single or smallish twin setups?

Not sure this is making sense to me. A 5 ton is quite off road capable by design, so unsure what a full off road build would mean beside locker axles. If you want brute low end power, you should maybe get a 250 powered truck. Or, possibly a turned up 8.3L in low range, but don't use reverse.

 

[dieseltech21]

Been thinking of doing a trans swap to a fuller 9 speed and putting air diff locks. I'd like to stick with the 8.3 since I have experience with it (just finished a rebuild of one). Plans are to do some rock crawling and tow/carry equipment and vehicles off-road whether it be rain, snow, mud. The 9 speed and air locks are so I can go on road when needed

 

[74M35A2]

Been thinking of doing a trans swap to a fuller 9 speed and putting air diff locks. I'd like to stick with the 8.3 since I have experience with it (just finished a rebuild of one). Plans are to do some rock crawling and tow/carry equipment and vehicles off-road whether it be rain, snow, mud. The 9 speed and air locks are so I can go on road when needed

Cool, post pics.

 

[simp5782]

Ive got a Borg Warner high and lower pressure sequential system for $1000. It has around 300 hours on it. I WOULD advise on head studs. She will pull 42lbs of boost.

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[Lukes_deuce]

And this is what grendel bought to go on his, I am jealous.



View attachment 648047


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Anything ever come of this? The specs make it look to be a S366. Should spool quick on an 8.3 and be good for 500hp.

 

[74M35A2]

Holset is mostly viewed as a technology follower, not leader, yet they are a sub of Cummins so will always be used by them. BorgWarner has paved the path as a leader in turbo technology, they are the supplier for the majority of Ford EcoBoost turbos, etc..... In situations where I have heard of a Borg unit replacing a Holset, the majority of the time the user says the performance difference is substantial.

On our 8.3L, the factory intake mounted "aftercooler" becomes a restriction at about the 300hp mark. I think Grendel removed this and went with a standard intake elbow and medium size front mounted charge air cooler.

Head studs would be advised as mentioned, but he may have done that already, as he was mentioning doing so. They are not cheap for the 8.3L, limited source(s). I have an 8.3L P-7100 pump if you want to go even further with it.

The machined pad on the compressor housing in that picture is for a turbo speed sensor which Borg sells.

 

[Lukes_deuce]

Holset is mostly viewed as a technology follower, not leader, yet they are a sub of Cummins so will always be used by them. BorgWarner has paved the path as a leader in turbo technology, they are the supplier for the majority of Ford EcoBoost turbos, etc..... In situations where I have heard of a Borg unit replacing a Holset, the majority of the time the user says the performance difference is substantial.

On our 8.3L, the factory intake mounted "aftercooler" becomes a restriction at about the 300hp mark. I think Grendel removed this and went with a standard intake elbow and medium size front mounted charge air cooler.

Head studs would be advised as mentioned, but he may have done that already, as he was mentioning doing so. They are not cheap for the 8.3L, limited source(s). I have an 8.3L P-7100 pump if you want to go even further with it.

The machined pad on the compressor housing in that picture is for a turbo speed sensor which Borg sells.

I agree with your thoughts on the manufactures. I am interested in hearing real world experiences using different turbos on the 8.3 Im familiar with Dodge Ram pickups with the holset turbos but that is a different ball game, -EX much more fuel available and tuning. We are limited with fuel on stock injectors and the MW pump, also our trucks are lot heavier than a pick up. From my experience, a Borg Warner S366 with 50hp injectors and a good tune on a 5.9 and you will hit 600 hp. Now put the same turbo on the 8.3 with the different characteristics of our trucks, and I would like to see how it works. I believe it would be an improvement, but a S366 isnt much bigger than an HX40. I would love to see a S472 with a tight exhaust housing on a T4 manifold.

I would love to see an 8.3 with a decent sized intercooler, remove the aftercooler, pump work and a new well known turbo (so we know dimensions). If you keep boost under 40 and have the supporting mods, the truck will be a rocket compared to stock. My main concern is when working the truck. I do occasionally load up the bed or pull a big trailer, so I dont want to have it run hot after all the work and money.

 

[74M35A2]

That's why I went with a modern EFI 400hp 8.9L ISL from an RV (not yet installed). Has 40 psi VGT boost from the factory, roller lifters, 4 valve head, genuine Jake brake, multiple injections per combustion event, and 2 piece steel topped pistons so EGT is no concern. Plus SAE certified 400hp/1200ft-lb. Can likely be done for lower cost and increased reliability than pouring gobs of $ into a 2 valve mechanical 8.3L. Has the highest power density of any mass production Cummins engine (power per displacement). Is an electronic engine, but that simply requires any Dodge Ram accel pedal, nothing more. I picked up the 2005 ISL for less cost than new aftermarket 8.3L head studs and a BW turbo, albeit it was 6 states away, but fun to drive and meet new members. Now to find the time to actually install it.... Ugh !!!

Member 4xdesign installed a full size Detroit 60 series intercooler on his M939a2, and did an amazing job, looks factory stock, it is the same size as the radiator, and has 4" inlet and outlet. That, plus a P-7100 pump, head studs, timing @ 16, larger turbo, larger injectors, GSK, and she should sing a good song. The 8.3L block is known to crack between cylinders 1990 and earlier though, once pushed.

 

[grendel]

Anything ever come of this? The specs make it look to be a S366. Should spool quick on an 8.3 and be good for 500hp.

Sure, it goes like stink. We had the injectors and pump built to match that turbo. We also did the timing and changed the plumbing.

You really have to do all of the above to get the most out of it.

The 8.3L in our trucks really can't take advantage of more modern turbos and we were just fine with that. No vane controller, etc.

 

[Lukes_deuce]

What injectors did you go with? I will be adding an intercooler soon and want to see what else can be done. I heard the pump will flow enough for 400hp but the injectors have a bad spray pattern, so even when you throw more fuel at it, the spray pattern is outside the bowl of the cylinders and creates additional heat for no reason.

 

[74M35A2]

Be careful of opinions. I personally doubt the MW will flow 400hp of fuel and have yet to see that, maybe it does, can be verified by having the MW pump bench tested for flow output at max fueling rate. I think the MW pump is 10mm plungers, as where a P-7100 pump is typically 12mm plungers. A P pump is dyno proven to go over 400hp in stock configuration via fuel plate adjustment or removal.

Also, I don't think spraying more fuel at the same time/angle should alter the spray/bowl geometery relationship? The injection timing of the spray does affect this relationship though.

It is/was common for 5.9L people to use stock "marine" injectors of higher hp fuel flow, but they have a wider spray angle, and cause smoke/excessive EGT's when used with automotive pistons. This could be what you are referring to?

Also watch your charge air cooler ratings before buying. Aftermarket seems to be a little more generous in their HP ratings than what you will find under the hoods of MRAP's and school buses (core size vs engine power rating). A lot of variables into those figures.

 

[grendel]

I had my injectors and pump done by http://dieselsfuelinjection.com/

Erik confirmed that the MW will handle 400hp worth of fuel, and then some - He installed springs and calibrated it as such, then dyno'd it. He rebuilt my injectors with Bosch parts and then dyno'd those.

I would not have anyone else do this work. Now that I am no longer building these trucks, I am happy to share the sources.

Smaller charge air coolers are out there that will support the flow. It's the air filter that is usually the issue. Do CFM calcs and you'll be fine.

 

[grendel]

Call Erik. It's his research.