Adding multipurpose hydraulics to the deuce

[rchalmers3]

Guys, I'm looking for some ideas about how to fit hydraulics to the deuce for a variety of purposes: knuckleboom, dump bed, rear winch, log splitter, chain saws, you name it.

I have a hard top deuce with front mounted PTO winch. I recently purchased a transfer case PTO for operating a pump. Beyond that, my truck is a blank slate for adding whatever utility is most beneficial.

The threads I have uncovered in my searches were builds specifically for mounting knucklebooms or fitting dump beds. My search did not uncover any threads about making the deuce into a hydraulic Swiss army knife! (SEE?)

If anyone has suggestions, recommendations or resources to recommend for sizing and designing hydraulic systems, please pass them on. I have no experience with hydraulic equipped vehicles, but have admired a few farm tractors that were fitted with multiple circuitry (front, rear, side). I especially liked the idea of quick couplings, making the tractor a real Swiss tool. I would like to duplicate that kind of utility with the deuce if possible.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[Heath_h49008]

I could recommend a few agricultural shops that could design it for you. Basically, add a hydraulic pump to the PTO, a reservoir tank, etc... It has been talked about, and done in the cases you mentioned.

Google search "wet kit" under truck accessories and you will find what you're looking for.

Hope it helps.

 

[wreckerman893]

I have a mad scheme to take two rear axles and make an articulated skidder type vehicle using a deuce engine/tranny I have as a spare. The setup is still in the frame and includes the radiator, clutch, etc.

My idea is to have a live hydrolic system like the above mentioned and to be able to hook three point hitch equipment to the rear of the vehicle. I would use it for bush hogging some of the rougher terrain here at the Boss Lady's LZ.

 

[m16ty]

The way my dump setup is arranged would work for what you are talking about. It's just a Northern Tool pump run through a standard agricultural spool valve. You could add as many other valves in-line as you need. I built it this way on purpose for future hyd powered items.

The first thing to do is find out the GPM and pressure required to run the things you want to power. Most older farm tractors run 2,000-2,500 PSI and 12-15 GPM. Those specs will run most things agriculture. When you get into running things like hyd chainsaws and such they may require more GPM. I just Googled a hyd chainsaw and they list GPM at 10-30. I tend to think the chain wouldn't turn as fast as needed in the lower GPM range.

I would envision a set of ag quick couplers mounted out the side of the truck or the back to connect things to.

 

[Derrickl112]

Subscribed. I will be doing something like this to my m931.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Did we talk about this in the long lost Bug-out thread? I can't find the old posts.

 

[rchalmers3]

Google search "wet kit" under truck accessories and you will find what you're looking for.

That's "the phrase that pays!" I did not know the term for what I was seeking, thanks! However the kits available on the first page of results found in my search are out of my price range. Most likely I'll piece something together to keep it more affordable.

I have a mad scheme to take two rear axles and make an articulated skidder type vehicle using a deuce engine/tranny I have as a spare. The setup is still in the frame and includes the radiator, clutch, etc. My idea is to have a live hydrolic system like the above mentioned and to be able to hook three point hitch equipment to the rear of the vehicle. I would use it for bush hogging some of the rougher terrain here at the Boss Lady's LZ.

WM I had the same thought for making a heavy crawler vehicle. Question: Would you delete the suspension and fix the axles to the frame? I imagine that a low speed articulated rig would not need any springs for keeping contact at all four corners. Do you have a sketch of the pivot for us to consider?

I saw on Craigslist in the New England area there was a guy selling a deuce modified by bobbing a deuce and installing a steering axle on the rear, mechanically connected to the front so the axles steer in opposite directions! Sounds like it would be difficult, if not IM-POSSUM-ABLE to steer at high speeds.

The way my dump setup is arranged would work for what you are talking about. It's just a Northern Tool pump run through a standard agricultural spool valve. You could add as many other valves in-line as you need. I built it this way on purpose for future hyd powered items.

The first thing to do is find out the GPM and pressure required to run the things you want to power. Most older farm tractors run 2,000-2,500 PSI and 12-15 GPM. Those specs will run most things agriculture. When you get into running things like hyd chainsaws and such they may require more GPM. I just Googled a hyd chainsaw and they list GPM at 10-30. I tend to think the chain wouldn't turn as fast as needed in the lower GPM range.

I would envision a set of ag quick couplers mounted out the side of the truck or the back to connect things to.

Ty, I was thinking of the smaller pole saws found on the 'net and you are right about the quick coupler idea on three sides. Can't forget a front winch, can we?

Sorry in advance for these very beginner questions:

Does building an open architecture system for general purpose dictate a particular type of system? For example there are valves that are open at rest vs valves that are closed at rest. Or is the valve type implement specific?

Am I right to assume I'll be building a two line system with pressure and return lines? If so, how does the system circulate when nothing is connected via quick couplers? Does the pump have an internal bypass or is it dead head pressurizing while running with nothing connected?

Is there a rule of thumb for fluid capacities, as in how many gallons are required for say, 20 GPM @ 2500 PSI?

I once had a link to the study guide for an introduction to hydraulics. Would you or anyone have that? I think some reading is in order.

Any assistance is appreciated,

Thanks,

Rick

 

[m16ty]

There are two types of hyd systems. Closed center and open center. Open center systems are less complicated and less expensive to build so unless you want to get really exotic that's what you'll want. In a open center system, when all valves are in neutral (center position), fluid constantly flows from the pump, straight through the valves and back to the tank. The valves must be tied together in series so the outlet flow from one valve goes to the inlet of the next one in line.

The only down side to a open center system is that the pump is constant displacement (GPM) and you can only operate one function (valve) at a time. You can cheat a little and operate two functions at a time on something like a knuckleboom if you "feather" the valves. Open center should do what you want and is the most common type system found in anything over 20 or so years old.

Closed center is the latest and greatest setup but you can tie up a fortune in a variable displacement pump. It's just a more complicated system in general.

How much fluid capacity you need will depend on what you are wanting to run. Not the GPM or PSI of the pump. It does help with heat to have a extra big tank. Things with hyd motors such as chainsaws and winches will heat the oil up pretty hot if ran for extended periods. You may even need a hyd cooler depending on what you are running.

You should be able to get into a setup for not too much money. Pumps can be had from Northern Tool for around $200. Valves can be had for around $100 each. I built my own tank as I couldn't find one that would fit where I wanted to mount it but they can also be had at Northern Tool fairly cheap. Depending on how many hoses, you want to run, you can get several dollars tied up in hoses and fittings.

 

[runk]

Some favorite hydraulic tutorial sites-
Fluid Power Basics | Hydraulics and Pneumatics
Hydraulic Tutorials

Manufacturer's sites-
Literature Library
Hydraulic Cylinders Prince Manufacturing Corporation
Galtech oleodinamica S.r.l.

Parts houses -
Surplus Center - Hydraulics, Engines, Electrical and More
DiscountHydraulicHose.com

 

[rchalmers3]

Some favorite hydraulic tutorial sites-

Cheers runk, I appreciate the links to any discussions and materials at this point!

There are two types of hyd systems. Closed center and open center. Open center systems are less complicated and less expensive to build so unless you want to get really exotic that's what you'll want. In a open center system, when all valves are in neutral (center position), fluid constantly flows from the pump, straight through the valves and back to the tank. The valves must be tied together in series so the outlet flow from one valve goes to the inlet of the next one in line.

The only down side to a open center system is that the pump is constant displacement (GPM) and you can only operate one function (valve) at a time. You can cheat a little and operate two functions at a time on something like a knuckleboom if you "feather" the valves. Open center should do what you want and is the most common type system found in anything over 20 or so years old.

Closed center is the latest and greatest setup but you can tie up a fortune in a variable displacement pump. It's just a more complicated system in general.

How much fluid capacity you need will depend on what you are wanting to run. Not the GPM or PSI of the pump. It does help with heat to have a extra big tank. Things with hyd motors such as chainsaws and winches will heat the oil up pretty hot if ran for extended periods. You may even need a hyd cooler depending on what you are running.

You should be able to get into a setup for not too much money. Pumps can be had from Northern Tool for around $200. Valves can be had for around $100 each. I built my own tank as I couldn't find one that would fit where I wanted to mount it but they can also be had at Northern Tool fairly cheap. Depending on how many hoses, you want to run, you can get several dollars tied up in hoses and fittings.

Thanks Ty, I get that I can build an open center system at lowest cost, pick a pump for the highest anticipated flow and build a system with the largest reservoir that I can possibly manage.

More newb questions:

How do I configure an open center delivery system that provides quick coupling connections on three sides of the truck but does not have dedicated valves?

If I want true utility, each hydraulic attachment would have it's dedicated control: a chainsaw would have a throttle. a winch would power in and out, and so on. Out riggers may be spring loaded and need a simple power out supply only. The way I see it, dedicating valves at the three corners would not serve, unless, ......

Is there a valve that is either centered open or on and when switched stays on without returning to center? Like a light switch? If so, that is how I could create a open centered system with quick couplings at three corners, while maintaining circulation. There would be one of these valves at each of the three corners, with quick couplings hanging from them!

Does my question communicate?

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Heath_h49008]

Find a tractor that does everything you want.

Put a pump that matches those specs... say for a John Deere 4440?... and put that on a PTO running on your truck.

Find junk JD 4440 and liberate hydraulic valving/connections/etc.

Mount valves and ports as desired.

Seem logical to everyone?

 

[m16ty]

I'm not 100% sure what you're wanting but I'll try and answer your questions.

You can have multiple outlet points for each valve. Just hook them up in parallel. You won't be able to run but one item at a time though. We way the quick couplers work is they will allow flow to whatever you have hooked up but the other open couplers will be closed with nothing hooked to them.

You can get valves in all kinds of configurations.
1)Spring centered -When you let go of the valve it automatically returns to the neutral position.
2) Detent in either direction -When you move the valve to do a function it will stay in that position until the hyd cylinder or whatever bottoms out. When the cylinder bottoms out it will return to neutral.
3) No spring, no detent- The valve will stay in the position you put it in until you move it again.

 

[m16ty]

Find a tractor that does everything you want.

Put a pump that matches those specs... say for a John Deere 4440?... and put that on a PTO running on your truck.

Find junk JD 4440 and liberate hydraulic valving/connections/etc.

Mount valves and ports as desired.

Seem logical to everyone?

Stay away for surplus JD stuff. It's all closed centered on anything newer than 1960 and even a pump off a junk JD tractor at a salvage yard is going to be big bucks.

Another problem with surplus tractor pumps is most of the pumps are either direct mounted to the engine or are fit inside the transmission housing. That would make trying to hook it up to the deuce PTO shaft a real problem.

 

[Heath_h49008]

I was just thinking about the valves and fittings from the tractor.... the pump that could run off the PTO would probably need to be sourced separately.

I have a good friend I used to shoot ACTS with who builds hydraulic systems for specialty ag trucks. If you would like I could send him a query for specific part numbers. It should all be off the shelf stuff.

 

[rchalmers3]

Draw ver 0.0

Ok, so my knowledge may be so out of whack that my questions are unanswerable. so excuse me while I whip this out.....

Rick

 

[rchalmers3]

Technology makes my head hurt

Here is what I envision such that the truck has the ability to run a open centered system without dedicated valve banks fitted to the terminations. Instead there is a single "on/off" valve that provides an open center if there are no implements attached to the quick couplers.

Does this make any sense? Or am I off on a tangent?

Rick

 

[robert c neth]

you might check out some utility trucks the ones i drove had hydraulics everywhere.my m35 dump has a tank with a 3 way valve ,powers the dump and front and rear lines with 3 seperate levers .

 

[islandguydon]

did we talk about this in the long lost bug-out thread? I can't find the old posts.

because it's gone

 

[m16ty]

In your second drawing, Your valves at the quick connect end need to be hooked up in series. Your drawing has them parallel. A open center system will never build pressure like that.

I wouldn't put individual valves at each outlet location. I would use a valve bank with fuild supplied by the pump and branch off your valve bank to each individual outlet.

A valve like you will commonly use has a built in pressure relief so there would be no need for a separate one.

I'm at work right now. When I get home I'll go by your drawings and make up a system that would be better suited.

 

[m16ty]

Here is two different drawings of how you could set it up. The drawings are for a open center system. As you can see, it's built in a loop which is how a open center system has to be set up.

Generally, the implement you run doesn't care if it's a closed center or open center system. Most implements will run fine with either system.