Amsteel blue synthetic rope on 5 ton front winch

[Baradium]

My winch setup is in Georgia and my 5 ton is in Alaska. Since the setup is going on a trailer in a few months to go north anyway, I'm trying to get as many parts as I can together now instead of shipping them.


Has anyone put amsteel blue synthetic rope on their self recovery winch? My cable should probably be replaced and the synthetic rope is much safer (not to mention easier to deal with). There is a company that is a distributor for amsteel somewhat near to where everything is in Georgia, so I'm thinking of pulling the original cable off and going to see them in person so I can make sure the ends are correct. Other than that, I want to put as much length on the truck as I can. I understand that you can get more of the synthetic onto a drum than the steel (I think I read 10% somewhere, but that was dealing with a much smaller winch), so I was hoping I could take advantage of someone else's prior experience to find out what I can safely get away with.

These are the specs for the amsteel blue:
http://www.ashleysling.com/amsteel-blue-rope.htm

Is there anything else I should be aware of that I haven't thought of or brought up?

I did a search, but the references to amsteel were all in passing suggesting its use.

 

[Suprman]

I like synthetic line its so much safer than the old metal cable. But the mil trucks have rough edges all over and you have to be careful of fraying.

 

[srodocker]

Im curious about this as well...

 

[doghead]

The drum connection is in a hole with a setscrew. Can the synthetic rope be terminated like that?

 

[todds112]

I had synth line on my Jeep. It was great to work with, but you have to be very aware of sharp edges (I even replaced the winch rollers with Delrin ones). I also had to get a special snatch block that was compatible (ARB $$$). The inner most drum wrap is covered with a protective sleeve to help with heat. Even so, just not having the line wrapped as tight as it should have been allowed the line to slip on the spool. That created enough friction heat to melt the protective wrap. Luckily it took the damage and the line itself was OK. Weighs next to nothing. Very safe. A fray won't cut through a glove (or hand) like butter. It does take alot more care to last. You are even supposed to wash it if it gets muddy/dirty because the dirt will abrade it faster. They say it is UV stable, but I would still have a cover over the spool if it sits outside alot.

 

[Capt Jon]

Synthetic is great if you work with it every day, but requires more care and is much less durable than wire rope. I have wire rope that I have used for 20 years and is still in good condition, but I replace my synthetic cables every couple years or so. I have two in use now on jeeps that see 10-15 hours a week off-road. I will probably replace them both at the 1-year mark. As often as they are used, the ease of synthetics are worth it for me. (my wife hauling cable up a tall sand dune is much happier dragging synthetic). But even then it's a close thing. Anywhere but the desert, I would stay with wire rope.

Synthetic is much more flexible, lighter, safer, no meat-hooks to cut your hands, etc... It also won't damage itself if you get a couple of wraps crossed under load like wire rope will. But it does fray, get fuzzy, is UV sensitive, and very sensitive to abrasion. Wire rope will saw through trees and soft rocks, either of these would destroy a synthetic line pretty quickly.

Synthetic is basically a luxury that is worth it if you use the winch a lot (several times a month). Otherwise, it is not worth the money. Remember that even if you take good care of it, you will be replacing it every 2-3 years. That's a lot of money for something that's just sitting on the front of the truck not being used. Figure full replacement every few years and calculate for yourself whether the ease of use is worth the money.

 

[dawico]

My winch setup is in Georgia and my 5 ton is in Alaska. Since the setup is going on a trailer in a few months to go north anyway, I'm trying to get as many parts as I can together now instead of shipping them.


Has anyone put amsteel blue synthetic rope on their self recovery winch? My cable should probably be replaced and the synthetic rope is much safer (not to mention easier to deal with). There is a company that is a distributor for amsteel somewhat near to where everything is in Georgia, so I'm thinking of pulling the original cable off and going to see them in person so I can make sure the ends are correct. Other than that, I want to put as much length on the truck as I can. I understand that you can get more of the synthetic onto a drum than the steel (I think I read 10% somewhere, but that was dealing with a much smaller winch), so I was hoping I could take advantage of someone else's prior experience to find out what I can safely get away with.

These are the specs for the amsteel blue:
http://www.ashleysling.com/amsteel-blue-rope.htm

Is there anything else I should be aware of that I haven't thought of or brought up?

I did a search, but the references to amsteel were all in passing suggesting its use.

What size are you thinking about using? Or is that a question you are trying to answer too?

Just curious as I have no experience with it.

 

[Baradium]

What size are you thinking about using? Or is that a question you are trying to answer too?

Just curious as I have no experience with it.

I was hoping someone would chime in on that. If I can step the rope down a size I can put a whole lot more line on the winch, which would make the extra cost well worth it in that alone. So far I was planning on staying with the same size though unless someone with more experience chimes in on the matter. If I can't put more line on the winch, I may get an extension made as well to keep in the tool box.

Capt Jon:

This is a farm truck and there's no telling really how often we'll be using it. It will be a big help having a big enough winch to pull our tractors out if they get mired down. Something else about wire rope is that metal tends to be weaker in the extreme cold, I hope to not have to actually use it in that situation, but it's one more thing to make a day fun. We also get much less UV damage in Alaska. Must be a combination of not ever having extreme heat and the long winters. Seems that 10 years isn't uncommon for the synthetic rope, more if you keep it covered. I have a friend with a reciever hitch mounted 12k winch that he uses all the time offroad (and on his trailer) and he hasn't replaced the rope yet since I've known him and it seems to still be in good shape.

 

[jasonjc]

I see in the link above the min and max strength. But what is the working load? You need to know that to see what size rope you need.

 

[Capt Jon]

Baradium,

Most of my experience with synthetic rope is in the desert around Dubai and Abu Dhabi. I will defer to your direct experience for what happens in Alaska. I get Tourette's syndrome and cuss uncontrollably below 40 deg. I can't imagine what it would do to me or the rope. Where I'm from ice belongs in a glass.

I can tell you that the right (not all) synthetics are generally rated higher than equivalent diameter wire rope. So you should be able to get more on a drum. I replaced 5/16 wire rope with 5/16 synthetic from master-pull and got the length I wanted and more strength. It's great stuff. I have 3/8" synthetic on my wife's Jeep. When hers goes, I will probably replace it with 5/16 to get a little more length on the drum and still exceed the strength of Warn's standard wire rope. There are also heat based considerations for newer electric winches with brakes inside the drum, but this is not an issue on your PTO winch or an old upright electric that doesn't put the brake inside the drum.

Synthetic is very easy to work with and pull around, but I wouldn't want it in the woods back in Alabama just because of the abrasion. When we got tractors, trucks, or each other stuck there always seemed to be trees, rocks, etc... in the way. The wire rope cables have held up fine, but I don't think the synthetics I have been using would have held up as well. I am also very conservative about winch cables. When the synthetic starts to get fuzzy, I get nervous. I very well may be replacing it before I need to, but the peace of mind is worth it to me.

Most manufacturers (e.g. Warn) have no safety factor in the ratings for the cable they use on self-recovery winches. i.e. a 9,000lb winch will come with cable with a nominal strength of about 9-10K. Far below the working load for a commercial crane or hoist which will have a safety factor of 3:1 or 5:1. The more you research it the scarier it gets. The industry is completely unregulated.

 

[Baradium]

Capt Jon, thanks a lot for all the information. It's good to get some first hand accounts.

At around -40 the rope still works pretty normally. Cable gets even stiffer. I can handle the cold a lot easier than I can heat, especially now.

Amsteel makes various grades of rope, I'm looking at the highest. The 3/8" amsteel blue is rated to a min strength of 17,600 lbs. The 7/16" is rated at 21,500 lbs minimum (23,900 average). 1/2" is a minimum of 30,600 lbs (avg 34,000). 9/16 is 36,500 (40,500)

I don't suppose someone can confirm what the actual size of the wire rope is on these winches? I was thinking it's 9/16 but I didn't actually measure anything and I'm not near the winch for a few days.

 

[Csm Davis]

Baradium I have talked with the company reps and their engineers for both the Amsteel Blue and the Esmet ends and yes you can use highest grade for a military truck and be within the safety factors. I personally would use the same size line as specified in the TM for the truck you are putting it on but on the front and rear pulling winches you can go down a size and still have a good safety factor. The 1/2 on the front will be rated for more than what the winch is rated. The termination is where things get sticky. The Esmet ends are the only ones I can find that doesn't derate the cables to much they use the same setup we have now but a different inside plug that is made for the synthetic cables. Now as for the end on the drum I never got around to figure out how to attach it I think you can get them with a terminal that has an eye for a bolt that could be put in the set screw hole, or I also thought about having the drum modified to accept a Esmet end but that maybe over kill, which I like when dealing with winches. I would definitely recommend a winch cover which I believe that you can find here in the classifieds made by Jatonka. As to all these special fairleads and snatch blocks you can use whatever you want as long as it is clean and has a smooth surface no sharp edges or burrs they will cut the cable and may injure someone. I am looking to rebuild my front fairlead so it will be compatible and reinforce my winch.

 

[Hard Head]

I have heard that the winch just turns into a block of ice with synthetic rope in very cold climates. Most Scandinavian folks prefer wire! Also you have to put a heat covering over the synthetic for the first wrap on a series 12 or 18 winch due to heat. There is a better synthetic rope out now called fireline but you will need to use 1/2" for the needed load rating. It has a higher melting point. Also you should use a hawse fairlead with synthetic. I do sell the Warn replacement but it costs around $800.

 

[Csm Davis]

I have heard that the winch just turns into a block of ice with synthetic rope in very cold climates. Most Scandinavian folks prefer wire! Also you have to put a heat covering over the synthetic for the first wrap on a series 12 or 18 winch due to heat. There is a better synthetic rope out now called fireline but you will need to use 1/2" for the needed load rating. It has a higher melting point. Also you should use a hawse fairlead with synthetic. I do sell the Warn replacement but it costs around $800.

I would keep a cover on my winch if I used the synthetic rope so that would probably stop the block of ice problem. Our 2 and 1/2 ton and 5 ton trucks came with PTO or hydraulic winches so no need for the high temperature rope. The last I checked I could do a 100' 1/2" for around $300.00 this was for the boom winch on my wrecker so needed to stay with same size but wanted the extra strength.

 

[tennmogger]

A compromise might be your solution. I use a winch a lot on a heavy truck (14k lb Unimog) and keep a shorter length of steel cable on the drum, 120 ft instead of 250'. The reason is that most of the time there's an anchor point within that length, or the object I am pulling is within that length. The shorter cable keeps the winch pulling on inner layers and thus higher pull rating.

The compromise is to keep several length of synthetic extensions, like 25', 50' or 100 ft, and shackles for joining them. This way you only have to play out as much cable as needed (quicker to spool back in too) and use the easier-to-carry synthetic to reach the anchor. This way the longest part of the 'cable' is synthetic so is much safer.

The synthetic rope never sees the drum or fairlead, only a straight pull.

I found several lengths of heavy (5/8") blue Dyneema with a loop splice in one end and a cut loop on the other. They had been 'main stay' ropes on big sailing ships and were replaced due to age. Cheap, and all I had to do was remake one end loop.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Synthetic rope for winching. stuff like this keeps me employed, especially when the facts fight back. Just consider, UV issues, soil issues, melting issues, unpredictable life issues, (can only be fully loaded once and each subsequent use requires more de-rating.) Required frequent replacement. All this covered in the previous posts. Now the good part, when it fails, and it will, the recoil is over twice as fast. To get any reasonably safe life, you need a minimum of a 5:1 design factor and that means the 5-ton winch (20k) needs 1" line, vs the 5/8 wire they are made for. I do not think you can get 300' of 1" on that winch.

 

[catskillpond]

I would stay with the steel I was taught many moons ago from a Master Sgt. over in germany thread 2 jeep tires through the cable. Also we used to lay canvas between the tires over the cable. I believe we snapped three front winch cables I can remember and this setup laid the cable right on the ground these were front cables on 816s and no backlash. We did snap one rear cable dragging a wrecked 543 up an embankment it sheared on the snatchblock we had two duce tires on that and canvas same results. The tires were lashed to the cable by rope so they would not slide on the cable.