Any suggested improvements on my WMO filter setup before I use it?

[gimpyrobb]

Yes, anytime I mix gas in used oil, it always floats to the top.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Uh, wouldn't gasoline be on top?? And oil would be in the bottom third would it not? I think you're off on the order of specific gravities.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-gravity-liquid-fluids-d_294.html

Well, you need to look at what happens when fluids go into solution, they do not separate except under freeze distillation, or boiling them in in normal distillation practices.

Yes, anytime I mix gas in used oil, it always floats to the top.

This observation violates the observations of chemists for centuries. I am inclined to rely upon my training in chemistry, my work in petroleum research, and my observations from blending gasoline with a wide range of waste oils to make diesel fuel.

However, arguably, there are often precipitates formed in some blends, so that one needs to allow for a settling period to allow those precipitates to form and settle out. Additionally, solutions are dependent upon temperature, so that if one were to make a fuel blend solution on a warm day, then leave it through a cold weather cycle, then one can indeed observe evidence of fractional freezing, and fuel stratification; nonetheless, components in that blend that settled out during a cold snap are likely to go back into solution when the weather warms up again. One just has to accommodate for fractional freeze, and fuel stratification, if one is going to make waste oil-gasoline blends in the winter months.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I have seen the gas settle to the top in just a weekend. I am not a chemist and they might have their theorys, I just go by what I have seen and done. The gas rises to the top of the blend and the thicker oil settles to the bottom. This was in a 55gal drum we used to get us to one of the Ga rallys. It has happened other times too, but that was the most notice-able.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

I have seen the gas settle to the top in just a weekend. I am not a chemist and they might have their theorys, I just go by what I have seen and done. The gas rises to the top of the blend and the thicker oil settles to the bottom. This was in a 55gal drum we used to get us to one of the Ga rallys. It has happened other times too, but that was the most notice-able.

I have posted about 100 videos on YouTube that clearly show that gasoline and waste oils do not separate; however, there are frequently precipitates formed when blending light solvents with heavier waste oils. Also, the oil must be in liquid phase, not gelled, or it will not go into solution easily. Once in solution it will remain in solution unless the ambient temperatures drop significantly.

gimpyrobb you do not seem like someone who has spent much time blending gasoline with waste oils. And, I doubt if you used a hydrometer to determine what floated on top of your waste oil-gasoline blend was pure gasoline, or something else.

I propose an all too simple test that anyone can conduct on their own. Just buy 3 hydrometers, one for oil .800-.900sp; one for diesel fuel .700-.800sp; and one for gasoline .600-.700sp. Then take any new or used oil, such as: canola oil, or 10-40 motor oil, at 75F (25c). Put it in a clear container so that you can watch what happens. Measure its specific gravity. Then take a sample of new gasoline and measure its specific gravity. Then pour the gasoline on top of the oil so that you will have 80% waste oil to 20% gasoline. Observe what happens.

You are likely to see the gasoline at first float on top, but within a minute the solution should become fairly uniform. Wait 10 minutes, then put a .800-.900sp hydrometer into the solution. And record your reading. Then do not move the sample, and leave it there for 24 hours, and keep the temperature around 75F (25c), then after 24 hours examine the sample visually, and take another hydrometer reading.

Just because a waste oil frequently leaves behind sediments, when blended with gasoline, which account for about 10% of the total blend, does not mean that gasoline-waste oils separate. It just means sediments form when blending solvents with waste oils, so one has to remove those sediments.

 

[gimpyrobb]

BeyondBio, I am not one to experiment with this stuff, and I hope I don't come off sounding like an azzhat. I saw some guys said you get "less than curtious" responces, and I don't want to be one of those folks.

I have found that using umo run through some filters works great for me. The less I have to do to my fuel the better. I tried putting some pump gas in the oil mix to thin it for filtering. It was thicker at the bottom than at the top. Way thicker. I have found that diesel mixes more thoroughly, but really haven't put THAT much thought into it. I am not going to say someone is wrong for what they post, just what works easily for me and my rig. I'm glad to hear you got a pipeline truck, I'm sure you will love it. Post up when you have questions and we'll try to get you on the right track.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Thanks, gimpyrobb, I have been flamed and banned from almost every alternative fuels forum for just advocating blending gasoline with WVO, and supporting the WMO blending community. So, I appreciate being allowed to express myself here, but I understand that you have had observations that give you reservations of the blending process.

What I realize in my last message on this thread is I was not clear that those precipitates from blending waste oils with light solvents, such as gasoline, need not only be water and particles. The sediments may also include heavier oil fractions that may not go into solution with the lighter solvent, which is most likely what you observed.

The heavier the fraction, the less likely it is going to go into solution with a light solvent, such as gasoline. Every time I make WVO-gasoline blends I always have to remove at least a small portion of heavier oil fractions that settle to the bottom of my blending tanks. In WVO-gasoline blends the heavier oil fraction will be animal fat and/or palm kernel oil.

Which supports your finding that diesel fuel seems to work better for you as a blending agent. Diesel fuel is a heavier fraction than gasoline, so it is going to be a better solvent for heavier fractions. The heavier oil fraction in a WMO oil stream is likely to be waxes, greases and gear oil.

One experiment that I have not done yet, which will work toward your premise, and solve a problem that I have, which is a growing accumulation of heavier fractions (aka animal fat and/or palm kernel oil), is to heat the heavier fractions up to liquid phase in the presence of diesel fuel at maybe 50%. The temperature should not have to be more than 150F (65c), then allow the blend to cool back to ambient mid-range temperatures of 75F (25c). I believe one will find that at least a significant portion of the heavier fractions will remain in liquid phase and in solution with the diesel fuel. At that point the blend will still be too viscous to burn in most diesel engines, and is likely to have a fairly hi gel-point; however, that blend could then be thinned further, and its gel-point lowered further, by blending gasoline with it at 20%.

 

[o1951]

I believe one will find that at least a significant portion of the heavier fractions will remain in liquid phase and in solution with the diesel fuel. At that point the blend will still be too viscous to burn in most diesel engines

Would you want to burn it if you could? The bottom end has all the coke, ash and tar.

 

[dikwks]

@ Beyond Biodiesel, are the precipitates a result of a chemical reaction or are they the result of heavier particles settling out of a thinner mix? I am asking because I am experimenting with the feeding of a NHC 250. I mixed a batch of WMO with gasoline until the viscosity was about the same as diesel and didn't like the resultant junk that accumulated at the bottom of the container. It made me wonder whether or not my filtration system ( to 5 microns) was good enough. My latest answer to the problem has been the construction of a centrifuge which is happily rattling away as I type. That question of "will this work?" is as yet unanswered. A chemical reaction would indicate that maybe the centrifuge idea is unneeded.

 

[o1951]

construction of a centrifuge [/SIZE]which is happily rattling away as I type. .

Details, Details

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Would you want to burn it if you could? The bottom end has all the coke, ash and tar.

No, the sediments are meant to be removed, but I have found there are heavier fractions above the coke, ash and tar that can be extracted and burned during warmer months.

@ Beyond Biodiesel, are the precipitates a result of a chemical reaction or are they the result of heavier particles settling out of a thinner mix? I am asking because I am experimenting with the feeding of a NHC 250. I mixed a batch of WMO with gasoline until the viscosity was about the same as diesel and didn't like the resultant junk that accumulated at the bottom of the container. It made me wonder whether or not my filtration system ( to 5 microns) was good enough. My latest answer to the problem has been the construction of a centrifuge which is happily rattling away as I type. That question of "will this work?" is as yet unanswered. A chemical reaction would indicate that maybe the centrifuge idea is unneeded.

No, the precipitates are not the result of a chemical reaction, but are simply suspended particles that fall out of suspension when the viscosity of the mass of the fluid medium is reduced from adding gasoline to it. One of the most important things to get about gasoline blending is there MUST be a settling period after the blend, to allow the sediments to settle out. In the case of WVO I find 1 week of settling is plenty, but 24 hours will do.

However, I find WMO needs about a month of settling, because the suspended sub-micron particles that are common in WMO are only slightly more dense than the fluid medium, so it takes them longer to precipitate out. If they are not removed, then they will result in coking. And, no filter is going to remove a sub-micron particle, but a centrifuge will. So, it is good that you are developing a centrifuge.

 

[dikwks]

@o1951, ask and ye shall receive, but don't want to highjack the man's thread. Am going to post up in Alternative fuels.

 

[peashooter]

@o1951, ask and ye shall receive, but don't want to highjack the man's thread. Am going to post up in Alternative fuels.

Highjack away, this thread served its purpose for me. I added a 2micron filter to the end of my setup and am done now. I'll be following your soon to come centrifuge post though, and I suspect many others will to.

 

[o1951]

@o1951, ask and ye shall receive, but don't want to highjack the man's thread. Am going to post up in Alternative fuels.

Thank You- I do not consider it a highjack - it seems like if it can be done at a reasonable cost, that is the best improvement he can make.

That is what is done on lube oil on ships.

 

[peashooter]

Well I added another napa/wix 4770 filter base and a 2 micron Baldwin filter (BF7587) to the end of my initial setup. I think I'll call this good for now once I rearrange everything on the mounting panel so it doesnt hang way off the end.

So there are a total of 4 filters now, the first filter being the deuce's original primary filter also has the water seperator. I also added the giant magnet on the bottom of the barrel in hopes it at least helps keep any metalic items from making their way into my truck. The pickup tube/pipe inside the barrel is probably 8" off the bottom of the barrel to help prevent any of the sludge from getting into the filters&truck. Eventually I'll just pump that bottom out and dispose of it.

Thanks for all the help and addvice guys.

 

[Ford Mechanic]

I put a row of magnets out of a junk starter around my final filter to hopefully catch any small particles.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Those using magnets for collecting metal particles in the WMO stream, please let us know if you ever find any iron particles on your magnets.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Bjorn(cranetruck) put magnets on one of his fuel lines. He has pics here somewhere showing the crap that they caught. I will try to find the thread.

Page 5 shows the setup, I couldn't find the thread showing the rust he caught.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?28038-Fuel-polishing&highlight=magnets

 

[gimpyrobb]

Whoops, here it is.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?53428-Magnetic-fuel-filter&highlight=rust+filter

 

[cranetruck]

The magnetic fuel filter is still at work collecting metal/rust particles. These old fuel tanks are death to some metal to metal surfaces within the IP in particular.
This is as of March 20, 2013. Probably time to check it again.

 

[peashooter]

The magnetic fuel filter is still at work collecting metal/rust particles. These old fuel tanks are death to some metal to metal surfaces within the IP in particular.
This is as of March 20, 2013. Probably time to check it again.
View attachment 450670

Thanks Bjorn. I was wondering where you installed this magnetic filter setup, perhaps it was listed somewhere in the threads but I didnt run across it. Did you just put it inline after the in tank pump or after the final filter and before the IP? Thanks, Aaron