Axle seal quality

[sandcobra164]

" G may not know what he's talking about but he bought the OEM seals that had in a flash"

Actually G does know what he's talking about Sandcobra
Theres plenty of OEM seals still out there and I will be looking for some also being I to have little faith in the imports

I'd just like to add that I was being completely sarcastic when I typed "G may not know what he's talking about". I've read many hot hub / import seal threads and I believe the man has gone well out of his way to research the issue. I know exactly why he bought all of my excess so quickly and he did so because they are quality parts hence the reason I won't be selling the one's I've set aside for my truck.

Joseph

 

[gringeltaube]

..... I'm sure having some fun with you guys...!


Hey, this is no rocket science at all. There are real seals and there are cheap imitations as well, anyone could tell the difference...

Long ago I had these and also the inner ones custom made in my country, with mixed results and very expensive, so I had to learn a bit....

My only concern regarding OEM seals was to find them wth the rubber lip hardened from being over-aged. Luckily this was not the case; the ones I got actually are much softer material than the aftermarkets sold by one of our sponsor vendors...

I think it's only a matter of time: sooner than later someone will be offering better made replacements, for sure. And even if they cost 3times as much it still would be a good investment, IMO.

G.

 

[bsorcs]

Folks,

Been re-reading as many of the numerous seal-related threads that I have been able to find. Since I am not set up to press an offset, I'd like suggestions as to how to come to own appropriate shims. I have two rear hubs that are somewhat warmer than the rest...not blazing hot, but warmer...and I'd like to have my ducks in a row if they are still warmer after bearing/race/seals replacement. I gather that a shim thickness between 1 and 2 mm [~0.04-0.08 inch] would work, based on what I have gleaned. Looks like planar dimensions required for a shim are 81.9 mm od with a 61.9 mm center hole. Sound correct?

Thanks,
bs

 

[gringeltaube]

............................ I gather that a shim thickness between 1 and 2 mm [~0.04-0.08 inch] would work, based on what I have gleaned. Looks like planar dimensions required for a shim are 81.9 mm od with a 61.9 mm center hole. Sound correct?

Thanks,
bs

Take a look at my diagram.... (not to scale this time)

Dimensions for a shim would be 62mm I.D. x 86-91mm O.D. x 0.8-1.0mm thick.

Interference for that particular seal is 1.6mm and it takes almost 30lbs to get its center plate seated against the bearing cone. Thus, the high friction and resulting heat at higher speeds!
By adding a shim of 1mm thickness you leave only about 0.6mm for "preload", which I think is a minimum. Using the center section of another seal (1.5mm thickness) would be to much for my taste.

Hardened steel shims in adequate size and thickness should be available. (hardware stores, drivetrain specialists, e.g. what they use for ring & pinion adjustment in Dana axles, etc...)

G.

 

[Jake0147]

I have determined that the seal being removed for replacement would make excellent shims if I could figure out how to cut the center out of them without damaging them beyond reuse...

I could do that with a lathe. Of course if I had a lathe, I'd have had a press long before that. Besides which if I had a lathe I wouldn't need to cut up old seals to make shims, I'd just make shims...

I have another question to pose? how do the inner seals from N/S work out? Are they too thick as well?

Who is this N/S company? They obviously don't deal directly with (or have a mechanism for feedback from) the general public. What about their customers? There are lots of their resellers who frequent these forums and are aware of the issue? At what level do these resellers deal with that company? Does N/S actually know that their stuff is junk but they're the only act in town, or are they just blindly reproducing something with no feedback from the real world?

 

[Jake0147]

Hmmm... You posted while I was posting. Wow, I am quite sure the used seal I was measuring was from the same manufacturer, no name but the marks are IDENTICAL. But it measured 40 thousandths. (.0406 I think, just the tiniest smidge over a millimeter but NOT a millimeter and a half by any stretch). Perhaps checking the thickness of any given shim would be in order before making assumptions based on what you heard from some guy driving an apple car...
I'll have to go check the rest of them.

 

[Bill W]

Jake read the rest of the posts then you'll see what gringel is talking about
My seal that I cut down to use as a shim measured .058 ( aprox 1.5mm )

 

[gringeltaube]

Who knows... maybe there are different batches out there???

You all keep in mind that for me this started as just a small step over a typical improvised "mid-field emergency fix".
Some previous trial and error I guess is mandatory for anyone having any other than OEM parts. A soft seal will tolerate more interference, while the cheap repros I have are all the opposite...

May I suggest as a rule of thumb: if you can get the (any)seal center seated firmly in place and flat against the bearing cone just by finger force you are good to install as is. Anything more than that would require some kind of previous correction or shimming, IMHO.

G.

 

[bsorcs]

Herr Gringel,

Ihre Skizze war ausgezeichnet. Danke zehr fur die nummern! Sie hoffentlich keine taub wegen der Truppefordernmaschinen sind!

For what it's worth, the flat-stock part of the seals I received from Erik's is just under 1.5 mm thick, and the bare part of the inner surface is about 15.6 mm wide. Tomorrow I start querying the parts houses for shims, using your numbers. I'll post a synopsis of findings, as this seems to be information of value..

bill steinkampf

 

[bsorcs]

Outer seals I have: inner diameter = 61.9+ mm [2.438 in]; distance from inner radius to rubber seal material on the inner seal surface = ~14.84 mm [~0.585 in].

Re shims:

1-A differential shop has a stack of ~10 shims [$20]of an appropriate outer diameter, but the id is slightly less than that of the outer seal. Thicknesses range from 0.005 to 0.030 in. So that'd mean stacking to get the requisite thickness, and having to grind or file out the centers to fit. I see no problem re stacking, as the shims should not be turning, no? My concern re these are enlarging the id. I doubt that I can do it accurately by hand.

2-At an axle-transmission shop I got a shim that has id = 62.52 mm [2.461 in] , od = 74.94 mm [2.95 in]...yielding a shim surface width of ~6.20 mm [0.244 in], and thickness of 1.05 mm [0.041 in]. The id and thickness are pretty much spot on, but is the shim surface width sufficient? I think that I can readily get more of these.

3-I guess a third alternative would be to have a machine shop make whatever I want, but smart money says that would be pricey.

I'm leaning toward #2. What do you folks think?

bs

 

[gringeltaube]

Ahh... 75x62.5 shims..., aren't those the ones that go underneath the #31520 bearing cup, to adjust the pinion depht in the Dana 44 diff.....?

While that is the correct material to look for, I would rather prefer something with at least 85mm (max.91mm) O.D., to take advantage of the full available surface of the bearing, to better keep the soft steel center from warping and/or wearing....
Not saying smaller shims wouldn't work, though... try them out and let us know!

G.

 

[bsorcs]

Ahhhh, as to the #31520 I cannot now say, but I'll ask the fellow when I follow up tomorrow. He did indeed mention that they were from a ?Spicer/Dana? affair. I'll try at least the one he gave me. We shall see...insha'allah.

Question: how might the center of the seal wear?

bs

 

[gringeltaube]

...................
Question: how might the center of the seal wear?
bs

The outer bearing cone (#392) fits kind of loose on the spindle, so it will most likely be moving around a bit and/or slowly spinning, always leaning against the seal inner face or... just that shim. Pressure remains the same but contact surface would then only be half as much.

But again, trial and error...before pure theory, anytime!
G.