Axle wrap with a bobbed deuce?

[blackrock]

Are you saying you would provide a complete kit or just the DOM?

i can do whatever you want. Complete kit down to nut and bolts, just brackets, just heims. whatever you would need

 

[mudguppy]

.. Sure, traction-bars like mudguppy's are going to bind, ... given the limitations of the stock leafsprings as mudguppy has already pointed out...

exactly how will they bind given the actual articulation that is present (read: is not present)? There simply is not enough weight in a bob'er and the springs simply don't have enough travel to provide enough articulation to the point that it will bind.

yeah, all those other anti-wrap bars are great and all. They're design for vehicles with leaf springs that flex. These don't, not in a bob'er. You can build 'em. It'll work with some design.

My problem was axle wrap and hop. This fixed that. It is simple and cheap and much less engineering involved. If I thought I needed an elaborate setup because I was worried about articulation, then I'm in the wrong vehicle. These trucks aren't going to be rock crawling and don't have a snowball's chance in keeping all 4 on the ground when you're doing it.

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

Do you think leaves could be taken out of a bobber if there are no plans of hauling with it?

 

[blackrock]

long ago when i first lifted my truck. I was surprised at how it did off road but yea not best rti candidate

 

[blackrock]

Do you think leaves could be taken out of a bobber if there are no plans of hauling with it?

another thing i noticed with the deuce spring hangers is on some not all but the hangers don't flex all the way due to the casting be to bulky around the hanger and shackle. If you flapper wheel it it gives the shackle more swivel . i dont have a pic here to show it, ill try when i get home

 

[patracy]

i'm trying to reply and post a pic of my traction bars. the attachment window has crashed my browser 3 times in a row. It'd be great if this site had modern forum reliability like everywhere else on the 'net...

Looking at the back end on the time you posted this, I don't see any errors associated with your IP address in the error log. That points towards something happening on your browser end. By chance are you running IE 10? Another member reported a similar issue as well, they were using Comodo internet security. They had zero issues from another machine without that 3rd party app installed.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

Looking at the back end on the time you posted this, I don't see any errors associated with your IP address in the error log. That points towards something happening on your browser end. By chance are you running IE 10? Another member reported a similar issue as well, they were using Comodo internet security. They had zero issues from another machine without that 3rd party app installed.

Not to get this off topic, but I've had a lot of trouble the past several days getting on the site also. I've tried using the app on my phone, app on my iPad, and web browsers on both (safari) with little success. At first I thought the site was going down but then I noticed when I was able to get back to the site others had been posting.

 

[patracy]

Interesting, I see both of you use Verizon wireless to access the site.

Edit:
As for a timeline of events. Last Thursday there were core router issues at our hosting location around 3:40pm to 4:20pm EST. That was out of my control and affected several sites besides ours.

Last Friday around 1:10pm, the site was down for a bit while I tried to transfer about 60gb of data. I realized I was sucking the wind out of the server and causing mysql alarms/errors and stopped what I did. I ran some checks on the database as well and brought it back up around 1:30pm. Again EST.

 

[jesusgatos]

exactly how will they bind given the actual articulation that is present (read: is not present)? There simply is not enough weight in a bob'er and the springs simply don't have enough travel to provide enough articulation to the point that it will bind.

yeah, all those other anti-wrap bars are great and all. They're design for vehicles with leaf springs that flex. These don't, not in a bob'er. You can build 'em. It'll work with some design.

My problem was axle wrap and hop. This fixed that. It is simple and cheap and much less engineering involved. If I thought I needed an elaborate setup because I was worried about articulation, then I'm in the wrong vehicle. These trucks aren't going to be rock crawling and don't have a snowball's chance in keeping all 4 on the ground when you're doing it.

Wasn't talking **** about your setup, and acknowledged that the springs might not have enough travel to make the bind apparent. But unless your geometry is perfect, then yeah, they're going to bind. Building traction-bars like yours is actually a lot more complicated than building the other type that we've been talking about. Those links you added turn your suspension into something like a 4-link, but with flexible upper links (imagine that the front half of your leafsprings are the upper links). It is possible to install traction bars like yours that won't bind, but you really have to disassemble the leafsprings and cycle the suspension with just the main leafs in to figure out exactly where those traction bars needed to be located. Otherwise, what ends up happening is that as the suspension cycles, the leafsprings and the traction bars are traveling in two different arcs and they fight each other. Not just on articulation, but vertical travel too (but especially on articulation). In contrast, the other style traction bar (again, only one is really needed) is actually much easier to set-up correctly because you just have to approximate the correct location for the front mounting point and the shackle (or some other type of sliding mechanism) allows the traction bar to move with the leafspring as it cycles. Glad to hear those traction bars are working out well for you, but I thought it was worth sharing some more technical info about different types of traction bars. Like I said before, not especially critical for an application like this, but there's no harm in this kind of discussion is there?

 

[blackrock]

Wasn't talking **** about your setup, and acknowledged that the springs might not have enough travel to make the bind apparent. But unless your geometry is perfect, then yeah, they're going to bind. Building traction-bars like yours is actually a lot more complicated than building the other type that we've been talking about. Those links you added turn your suspension into something like a 4-link, but with flexible upper links (imagine that the front half of your leafsprings are the upper links). It is possible to install traction bars like yours that won't bind, but you really have to disassemble the leafsprings and cycle the suspension with just the main leafs in to figure out exactly where those traction bars needed to be located. Otherwise, what ends up happening is that as the suspension cycles, the leafsprings and the traction bars are traveling in two different arcs and they fight each other. Not just on articulation, but vertical travel too (but especially on articulation). In contrast, the other style traction bar (again, only one is really needed) is actually much easier to set-up correctly because you just have to approximate the correct location for the front mounting point and the shackle (or some other type of sliding mechanism) allows the traction bar to move with the leafspring as it cycles. Glad to hear those traction bars are working out well for you, but I thought it was worth sharing some more technical info about different types of traction bars. Like I said before, not especially critical for an application like this, but there's no harm in this kind of discussion is there?

both of you have very valid points. do the springs really even move that much? the bars will let the axle move in its generic motion (backwards) but not at the full rate it really should. But how much does it move? or move at all? In a perfect world the axle should only move up and down but as we know it swings in a rear word motion towards the shackle, with the bars it will force it more in that direction.

The set i will be building will have a heim on each end but be on less angle then what mudguppy has posted a pic of. i guess the question is like everything . do you gain more of what your trying to achieve. I don't want axle wrap cause i know what theses axles do to these springs. will it effect my ride and articulation? you bet but, ill take that loss.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

Interesting, I see both of you use Verizon wireless to access the site.

Edit:
As for a timeline of events. Last Thursday there were core router issues at our hosting location around 3:40pm to 4:20pm EST. That was out of my control and affected several sites besides ours.

Last Friday around 1:10pm, the site was down for a bit while I tried to transfer about 60gb of data. I realized I was sucking the wind out of the server and causing mysql alarms/errors and stopped what I did. I ran some checks on the database as well and brought it back up around 1:30pm. Again EST.

Hmmm, not sure. I had issues Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I do connect wirelessly with Verizon but I do use my wi-if at home and had issues then as well. Either way, it seems to be working well today.

Thanks

 

[11Echo]

I've had very little wrap on the trucks I did. I used front springs/hangers and mounted the shocks. No spacers used.

 

[JasonS]

Don't flex too bad. The fan was into the side of the radiator. Thankfully the fan belt was a little loose.

 

[jesusgatos]

both of you have very valid points. do the springs really even move that much? the bars will let the axle move in its generic motion (backwards) but not at the full rate it really should. But how much does it move? or move at all? In a perfect world the axle should only move up and down but as we know it swings in a rear word motion towards the shackle, with the bars it will force it more in that direction.

The set i will be building will have a heim on each end but be on less angle then what mudguppy has posted a pic of. i guess the question is like everything . do you gain more of what your trying to achieve. I don't want axle wrap cause i know what theses axles do to these springs. will it effect my ride and articulation? you bet but, ill take that loss.

Well see, that's the thing. Executed right, there's really not much compromise. Traction bars can reduce/eliminate axle-wrap without affecting the suspension much, if at all, in any negative way.

 

[mudguppy]

... By chance are you running IE 10? ...

11

 

[mudguppy]

View attachment 473226

View attachment 473227

long ago when i first lifted my truck. I was surprised at how it did off road but yea not best rti candidate

and, to me, it looks like most of the articulation is from the front - makes sense because there's much more weight on the front than rear. I just don't think I can get enough flex out of the rear to worry about traction bars being the limiting factor.

 

[jesusgatos]

...and tires flexing and let's not forget the way these frames twist too.

 

[mudguppy]

Wasn't talking **** about your setup, ...

well, sorta...

... Sure, traction-bars like mudguppy's are going to bind ...

and that was my challenge: for the simplicity and in practical scenarios, articulation just isn't there to begin with. That's all. No worries. No, no harm in discussion. Ain't mad, bro.

... Those links you added turn your suspension into something like a 4-link, but with flexible upper links (imagine that the front half of your leafsprings are the upper links). ...

agreed. I understand the 4-link design - spent lots of time researching the 4-link theories in school and a good bit building some. That's also why I chose to do what I did; because I know that this 'crude' 4-link will work for what I need it to. The chassis point was chosen out of convenience, considering the consequences are, what I considered, negligible.

... In contrast, the other style traction bar (again, only one is really needed) is actually much easier to set-up correctly because you just have to approximate the correct location for the front mounting point and the shackle (or some other type of sliding mechanism) allows the traction bar to move with the leafspring as it cycles. ...

And in the spirit of good discussion, I disagree. While the shackle will allow for horizontal travel as the axle moves rearward throughout suspension cycle, the real variable is the amount of rotation of the axle (pinion angle, for reference) as it cycles horizontally, and then transfers as vertical travel to the end of the anti-wrap bar. If the spring wants to rotate the pinion during compression, then that shackle doesn't do diddly and you're back to a binding 4-link as I have built. Theoretically. It's all the same theoretically unless you take the pack apart, and, as you stated, cycle the entire system and really see.

However, in practice will it bind? Nope. we won't see enough flex out of any of these setups to notice anything. My belief.

I thought someone built one like this? I really thought I saw a pic...

... The set i will be building will have a heim on each end but be on less angle then what mudguppy has posted a pic of. ... I don't want axle wrap cause i know what theses axles do to these springs. ...

longer is better; you'll be happy with that. In theory, what we would hope is what you're asking - that the pinion angle (as a reference) remains constant through it's travel. If this is the case, then longer will be better as the arc of travel will be closer to vertical than a short bar. This goes for either of the designs we have been discussing.

The best system would be one that mimics the length of the front half of the spring, and is attached at the same vertical distance below that pivot plane as the distance of the spring/axle mounting point to the traction bar point. THEN, if the pinion angle remains constant throughout cycling, then the traction bar axle end and spring/axle mount will travel in complimentary arcs. No bind. However, building a x-member to mount the front of the traction bar right about 12" below and 4" forward (in my scenario) of the spring hanger isn't real practical, and wasn't worth the work, IMO.

 

[mudguppy]

... No spacers used.

This was my problem - I have added huge blocks to make lift; greatly compounding the problem.

However, also seeing what hop does to a rear end off-road, even if I went with lift springs, I still would have addressed stabilizing the rear axle to ensure that even a little bit of wrap (which turns into hop) will not be something I want to worry about.

 

[jesusgatos]

And in the spirit of good discussion, I disagree. While the shackle will allow for horizontal travel as the axle moves rearward throughout suspension cycle, the real variable is the amount of rotation of the axle (pinion angle, for reference) as it cycles horizontally, and then transfers as vertical travel to the end of the anti-wrap bar. If the spring wants to rotate the pinion during compression, then that shackle doesn't do diddly and you're back to a binding 4-link as I have built. Theoretically. It's all the same theoretically unless you take the pack apart, and, as you stated, cycle the entire system and really see.

Not sure I'm following you here. Can you please elaborate? Are you saying that the shackle will make the traction bar less effective when it comes to controlling axle-wrap?

The best system would be one that mimics the length of the front half of the spring, and is attached at the same vertical distance below that pivot plane as the distance of the spring/axle mounting point to the traction bar point. THEN, if the pinion angle remains constant throughout cycling, then the traction bar axle end and spring/axle mount will travel in complimentary arcs. No bind. However, building a x-member to mount the front of the traction bar right about 12" below and 4" forward (in my scenario) of the spring hanger isn't real practical, and wasn't worth the work, IMO.

Would seem that way, but that's the tricky thing about leafsprings. They don't move in a simple arc like solid links, so the ideal geometry almost never ends up being a parallelogram-type setup. Every springpack is different, so there's no way to know for sure without spending a lot of time cycling the suspension, and even then an assembled spring-pack is going to cycle differently than just the main springs (with respect to pinion angle). That's why I installed these chain-anchor-pots in my fab slab. I agree with you though, that the safe bet seem to be to go long, like you've suggested, and to locate the forward mounting point so that it keeps the pinion pointed at the transfercase output.