Battery Apology

[Guyfang]

Guy, I guess you mean I've admitted to being a problem for small retailers. Yes, clearly I admit that. In my small town, a group 24 battery from Walmart or Auto Zone, or Advance Auto (national retail chain stores) is around $100. The same battery from a local car parts retailer would be $150, and not a better one, just a similar one. So in this case, I voted for Walmart. Living where I do, where it's an hour round trip just to go to town, most of my buying is over the Internet. The communication that the Internet brought is in the process of changing the entire structure of business.

Mom and Pop are becoming owners of small, family-owned business that sell via the Internet, rather than renting expensive "brick and mortar" stores. I get circuit boards made by a small company in the US that was started by a few guys who pooled their money to make some circuit boards for themselves. Now they have a small business that supports their families and provides excellent service for other small businesses like mine.


We we have all contributed to the demise of mom and pop stores, so I will not point my crooked little finger. Like you, I try to still spend my money someplace that stays in the area, or promotes small company's first.
If I had to guess, I'd say that Walmart will be put out of business by Amazon before too many years go by.

Wallmart failed badly here in Germany. Not because of putting out bad products, or taking jobs away from small business. But for American way of treating employees. American managers tried to run things like back at home. The two stores built here did not last long.

 

[rustystud]

Guy, I guess you mean I've admitted to being a problem for small retailers. Yes, clearly I admit that. In my small town, a group 24 battery from Walmart or Auto Zone, or Advance Auto (national retail chain stores) is around $100. The same battery from a local car parts retailer would be $150, and not a better one, just a similar one. So in this case, I voted for Walmart. Living where I do, where it's an hour round trip just to go to town, most of my buying is over the Internet. The communication that the Internet brought is in the process of changing the entire structure of business.

Mom and Pop are becoming owners of small, family-owned business that sell via the Internet, rather than renting expensive "brick and mortar" stores. I get circuit boards made by a small company in the US that was started by a few guys who pooled their money to make some circuit boards for themselves. Now they have a small business that supports their families and provides excellent service for other small businesses like mine.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Walmart will be put out of business by Amazon before too many years go by.

Your right. I'm just as guilty by shopping on line. Your also right that the future is "online" shopping. My wife now buys our food from "Amazon" . We too live far from town, and it's cheaper (no gas used) and less hassle to buy online.
We still make a monthly visit to "Costco" and fill up on long lasting foods and products though.
Being on a fixed income really makes you look for the deals now.

 

[Buickrat]

My daily drivers get Intersate, My race car and 803 get red tops. 2 reasons. One, red tops seem to last the longest, but more importantly, do not fume sulfuric acid inside the unit, so no more rusted battery trays or green terminals.

 

[BEASTMASTER]

my 5 ton had two of the big sears diehards in them when I bought it, and one lasted 11 yrs. and one lasted 13 yrs. just put two from walmart in it. we'll see what happens.

 

[big block 88]

8d all the way... huge improvement when going from 4 6tl's to 2 8d's

 

[rustystud]

8d all the way... huge improvement when going from 4 6tl's to 2 8d's

Boy your not kidding ! On semi-trucks I've seen owner-operators try and get by on the "Cheap" with smaller batteries. You can start them, but if for any reason the engine doesn't fire on the first crank your in trouble. Now with some 8D's in there the starter usually spins so fast the engine needs to slow down to fire !

 

[NEIOWA]

... Living where I do, where it's an hour round trip just to go to town, most of my buying is over the Internet. The communication that the Internet brought is in the process of changing the entire structure of business.

Mom and Pop are becoming owners of small, family-owned business that sell via the Internet, rather than renting expensive "brick and mortar" stores. I get circuit boards made by a small company in the US that was started by a few guys who pooled their money to make some circuit boards for themselves. Now they have a small business that supports their families and provides excellent service for other small businesses like mine.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Walmart will be put out of business by Amazon before too many years go by.

An what happens when the Wall St suckers stop pumping new $ into the Amazon tulip market? Amazon is a bigger threat than Walmart. Walmart at least has the aim of making a profit on their Chicom crap. Amazon is just washing $.

 

[Camel Driver]

When I first got my unit I was trying to come up with an inexpensive source for batteries. I settled on the Value Power group 26 from Walmart and for the first 11 months they worked out fine. In December the first set failed a day from being out of warranty. Walmart replaced them and I ran the generator with the new set until the amp meter was no longer indicating a charge. Here is March and they were dead again. I charged them overnight and they read on the high side of fair with the hydrometer. Reading a 5 volt draw with a Fluke and no amps so it doesn't seem to have a problem there. While charging I did disconnect the solar panel and charge controller. I don't think it was a problem but it wasn't putting anything out.

At any rate I apologise for endorsing these cheap batteries. Looks like I may be replacing them soon.

There was an article from some car magazine I read a while back. They did some battery testing, Walmart included. They found out what I had suspected but didn't ever want to tell anyone because I figured folks would think I was a nut job. And I honestly thought I was imagining things and just chalked it up to luck. It doesn't really make a lot of sense but, one companies batteries of a specific group size can be MUCH higher or lower quality on average than their other group sizes in the same line/cost level. I don't remember the group size I use in my F350 but, I use the next size up from what's required. They are a tight fit but they last for years in my trucks. The last I replaced was over 8 years old. The "proper" size hasn't lasted over 4 years in any F350 I know of. Remember, this is Illinois, we beat batteries like they are rented mules up here during the winter.

I wish I knew what article it was, the guys doing the testing were baffled as to why there was such a difference. I wonder if the different group sizes are sourced from different companies or something. That could be the thing that would explain the quality differences.

Hahaha, and don't be so hard on yourself! Batteries are one of those items everyone has an opinion about, just like oil brand/viscosity etc.

 

[Camel Driver]

This is why all my units get optima red tops. I know a lot of people talk bad about the optima but I've got several units that I sold 8+years ago using the same batteries. I've also been using a set of optimas for 2 years, for all my testing. They have been completely drained and brought back several times without a problem.

Not to start an argument or anything but, that is the same exact sort of performance/reliability I get with the 1000 amp wally world cheapies. The next size down that the truck is supposed to have are complete garbage and only last 3-4 years at the most. It is amazing the quality range batteries can have even in the same cost range.

 

[kavesman1]

I remember a place in my town that would get in scratch,dent,lost freight from an auction they went to. One day they had a pallet of 12v AGM batteries for sale...at $20 a piece.

Can't remember the name of them, but they had about 500 cca. And were manufactured 6 months prior. Amazingly enough, that battery lasted for 10 years through 4 different vehicle, which ranged from a S-10 2.8l, a 77 Suburban with a 454, and 2 Chevy Scottsdale's with 350's.

 

[csheath]

There was an article from some car magazine I read a while back. They did some battery testing, Walmart included. They found out what I had suspected but didn't ever want to tell anyone because I figured folks would think I was a nut job. And I honestly thought I was imagining things and just chalked it up to luck. It doesn't really make a lot of sense but, one companies batteries of a specific group size can be MUCH higher or lower quality on average than their other group sizes in the same line/cost level. I don't remember the group size I use in my F350 but, I use the next size up from what's required. They are a tight fit but they last for years in my trucks. The last I replaced was over 8 years old. The "proper" size hasn't lasted over 4 years in any F350 I know of. Remember, this is Illinois, we beat batteries like they are rented mules up here during the winter.

I wish I knew what article it was, the guys doing the testing were baffled as to why there was such a difference. I wonder if the different group sizes are sourced from different companies or something. That could be the thing that would explain the quality differences.

Hahaha, and don't be so hard on yourself! Batteries are one of those items everyone has an opinion about, just like oil brand/viscosity etc.

The original Motorcraft battery that came in my F150 lasted more than 9 years. A replacement from the local Ford Dealer was $99 at the time. They give a 10% discount if you purchase online and pickup at the store. The replacement only lasted 6 years but had a 7 year warranty. With the prorate I got it replaced for a little over $80. I see no reason to put anything other than the original size Motorcraft in my truck. Granted it's a little ol gas V8 so not apples to apples.

Everything else I own has a Walmart Everstart battery of some sort. I almost always get 5 years plus from them. The lawn tractor battery used to need replacing every couple of years until I put a solar charger on it. That was over 4 years ago so it remains to be seen how long it's going to last now. I have one of the lawn tractor batteries on my gate opener that is well over 5 years old. Have not had to look at it since I upgraded the solar panel on it to 30W. I even have the 270 CCA lawn tractor battery in my Mustang and another in my JD 855 tractor. Both are supposed to have MUCH larger batteries and the little Everstart just keeps cranking them up.

I am going to watch the Value Power batteries. The hydrometer didn't indicate any failed cells after charging but they weren't way up in the green either. It's possible the solar maintainer that came on it was creating a draw. I should have tested more before disconnecting it. I will probably buy a known good solar maintainer to replace it with and make sure it has a diode to prevent it from draining in low light. I wanted to remove the panel and mount it so it gets more light but the yay-hoo that installed it glued it down so I can't get it off without damage so I just gave up and left it in place.

Just ordered a new 20W, 24V panel and 24V charge controller off that auction site.

 

[gimpyrobb]

There is a lot of internal differences between batteries. If you are looking at 2 batts that are labelled differently, but turn them over and they have the same mold stamp, say a g402 for example, the insides are the same. If you have a choice between lead-acid or agm, get the agm.

 

[csheath]

Well the jury is still out on these batteries. I checked them today and they were still holding at 25.3 volts.

I wish I had done more testing on the solar charger that came on the unit because I suspect it might have been draining them. I cut it loose the day I charged them. I was trying to get the panel off the unit to relocate it to get more sunlight but it was glued on too secure to get it off. Installed a new solar charging system today. Will do a thread on that.

 

[Bmxenbrett]

Mabe it would be better not to have the solar charger connected full time.
I run mine every 2/6 months to give the batterys some juice/load test. If they go dead or weak il use them in my lawn mower and buy another set. I do keep 2-4 loose car batterys around so i can jump start with out to much of a problem.

Giving the set a no load warm up/battery charge every 2 months wont hurt anything as long as you do a reat test or run every 6 months to a year.

Edit: i have the cheap $20-30 walmart lawn mower batterys. There 2 yrs old and have never had a charger on them.

 

[csheath]

I have solar panels on every battery I own that sits and doesn't get regular use. Some with charge controllers and some little ones without. In my experience so far it has made the batteries last much longer keeping them topped up with full charge.

The situation I have on these value power batteries I currently have in the unit is I had to replace the first set after one year. This set was just installed in December. I normally run and load test my unit every month but I skipped a month a while back and when I came back after the 2-month interval both batteries were stone cold dead. I removed the military installed solar charger and charged these batteries back up when I made this post. Yesterday they were still at 25.3 volts so now I'm not so sure if it was the batteries at all or if the old solar charger was causing them to discharge. With the solar charger disconnected I measure no signficant voltage or current draw.

On the topic of lead acid battery design the general rule for higher-quality batteries were they had a higher number of shorter plates. The Lesser Quality Batteries would have fewer plates that were longer meaning they were closer to the bottom. As the plates sluff off the buildup in the bottom would finally touch the bottom of the plates and short them out.

Years ago Chevron had a design where each and every plate was in its own plastic bag to capture the sluff around the plate so that it could never build up and short the plates out.

 

[rustystud]

I have solar panels on every battery I own that sits and doesn't get regular use. Some with charge controllers and some little ones without. In my experience so far it has made the batteries last much longer keeping them topped up with full charge.

The situation I have on these value power batteries I currently have in the unit is I had to replace the first set after one year. This set was just installed in December. I normally run and load test my unit every month but I skipped a month a while back and when I came back after the 2-month interval both batteries were stone cold dead. I removed the military installed solar charger and charged these batteries back up when I made this post. Yesterday they were still at 25.3 volts so now I'm not so sure if it was the batteries at all or if the old solar charger was causing them to discharge. With the solar charger disconnected I measure no signficant voltage or current draw.

On the topic of lead acid battery design the general rule for higher-quality batteries were they had a higher number of shorter plates. The Lesser Quality Batteries would have fewer plates that were longer meaning they were closer to the bottom. As the plates sluff off the buildup in the bottom would finally touch the bottom of the plates and short them out.

Years ago Chevron had a design where each and every plate was in its own plastic bag to capture the sluff around the plate so that it could never build up and short the plates out.

Yes the bottom clearance is very important, but so is the thickness of the plates. A lot of modern battery lead plates are paper thin, and made from recycled "lead". That "lead" can have a lot of impurities which shortens the life of the battery. High quality batteries like "Odyssey" use "virgin lead", and the plates are much thicker then cheaper batteries. Spiral wound "AGM" batteries like "Optima" are also very good. They did have problems with their plate "connectors" . The connectors would corrode and break. Now they went with better quality materials and allowed for venting of gasses.
Basically when it comes to batteries, you get what you pay for. Cheap batteries will have thin lead plates with poor quality lead at that. More expensive batteries will have more and better quality lead. One way I always use to check an unknown battery is to pick it up and see what it weighs. Cheap batteries are lighter then quality batteries.

 

[gatorbob]

I love the Optima batteries ! I also really love the "Odyssey" batteries but cannot justify the cost.

Somehow for a local purchase, I'm showing the Odyssey Extreme is about the same price as the Optima Redtop in group 34. Both are really expensive but I have some battery brand I've never heard of before. Given my lack of a 24V jump starter, I'm considering upgrading and keeping the old pair as a spare. For that matter, if I have a set of spare batteries, I might see what the Costco price is for Interstate batteries and just have two sets of cheap batteries.

 

[rustystud]

Somehow for a local purchase, I'm showing the Odyssey Extreme is about the same price as the Optima Redtop in group 34. Both are really expensive but I have some battery brand I've never heard of before. Given my lack of a 24V jump starter, I'm considering upgrading and keeping the old pair as a spare. For that matter, if I have a set of spare batteries, I might see what the Costco price is for Interstate batteries and just have two sets of cheap batteries.

Interstate makes a really good battery. Their like the "Chevy" of the battery world.

 

[csheath]

So far my new Solar Charging System is keeping the Value Power batteries up and ready. I have noticed fewer and fewer of the Value Power batteries on the shelf at Walmart so it appears they are phasing them out.

 

[csheath]

Interstate makes a really good battery. Their like the "Chevy" of the battery world.

WHAT? Did we the tax payers bail them out of bankruptcy also?