Brake fluid leak, fix now or fix later?

[5ivepenny]

Yes, yes. It is parked. No time till my Dodge p/u is done, removing air bags (suspension) and looking for a driveline vibration. Again on the deuce, I had been checking the brake fluid regularly with no discernible drop in level (4 oz over 6months didn't seem like a crisis) Now that I understand more about the break system (mostly the single circuit part) I still believe catastrophic failure of a wheel cyl is unlikely, however not worth the risk. I was hoping to make it to fall when I was planning on taking the truck off the road anyway but I have been educated. Thank you.

 

[brianp454]

I disassembled and rebuilt all three axles shortly after buying my truck, all new seals, all new wheel cylinders (deep pits that would never hone out), new MC, rebuilt air pack, added a remote reservoir in the cab, etc. I think it's the right thing to do. There's a great thread here called front axle stepxstep or something like that. Great thread with lots of good info. Peashooter and others have another thread on the brake parts with lots of good info also (below). I added some part numbers for that one. You’ll be surprised how many parts for this brake system will be at your local NAPA in stock or there the next day. For example, UP44 is the common 1 3/8” wheel cylinder rebuild kit. Note Erik’s surplus will have some parts cheaper than they will be at NAPA. I find many sources are a mix of USA, Mexico, or China parts. The washers are at NAPA also UP1245 and UP1246. You’ll need one of each per wheel and I recommend getting extras. You can get them by the box and they are not particularly expensive.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...LINE-REFERENCE-GUIDE-(Sizes-lengths-fittings)

Rebuilding the axles is a big job. Mine was in terrible shape (similar to the pics above). I suggest getting one of the seal master kits (each hub has two seals, note front is different) from Erik’s, some parts from NAPA listed above, MC rebuild kit (or a new one), air pack rebuild kit (just in case, as a minimum disassemble it to verify the pressure end is clean and clear), remote reservoir kit, etc. before starting.

There’s also a thread with a source of much less expensive DOT5 somewhere…

You also want to check the vents on all axles. The pressure can build up when they stick and blow gear oil all over the brake linings. Mine were coated in sludge! Better yet, get some 1/8 NPT to ¼ tube adapters and a couple rolls of 1/4 inch poly tubing from the local HW store and run the vents up into the cab someplace.

Send me a PM when you get closer to doing it and I’ll share some more info.

 

[VPed]

All of the above plus - check, or just go ahead and replace the flex hoses, there are five total. You can by from surplus stores but there is a thread that some of those (NOS) had issues. You can have some made up at places local to you (?) that specialize in brake and hydraulic lines, or you can also look to vendors such as Peashooter that sells them (aftermarket, not stock). I went with having some made up for me by a local shop. Took them the old ones and picked up the new ones the next day, in braided stainless steel, DOT certified, and all. This was before Peashooter started selling them. It is priceless knowing they should not be an issue anytime soon.

 

[Kaiser67M715]

just a heads up, Peashooter had mentioned he would no longer be doing the hoses. Supplier issues.

but any brake hose shop should be able to do it, keep in mind the fittings are a little odd, so it may take a while to get the correct parts. I would HIGHLY recommend stainless from any reputable shop/company. the Chinese hoses(or anything) just don't seem to cut it nowadays

 

[Kaiser67M715]

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...LINE-REFERENCE-GUIDE-(Sizes-lengths-fittings)



There’s also a thread with a source of much less expensive DOT5 somewhere…

In the same thread, also I think(check the third page, near the bottom) but it was 180 something? Iris Industries, this is also for 4 gallons, plenty for the deuce plus extra, it would be okay to maybe get 1 gallon, 2 to be safe, but price/gallon will go down the more gallons you get(to a point, shipping would also go up a certain amount). Surplus tends to be about twice as much per gallon.

4 gallons worked for me, with shipping, because I will also use it in my M715, probably with my 1985 GMC truck if I get that ready. NO ABS with DOT 5, rapid pulsing of the brakes would actually cause DOT 5 to froth and create bubbles.

NOTEOT 5.1 is not the same as DOT 5, it is actually more like DOT 4, but different heat characteristics

 

[5ivepenny]

Dodge done onto Deuce

Wow that was a 2 week PIA!! Finnally got the bottom of my vibration in my other work truck (95 dodge 3500) I am convinced that full time jobs just get in the way of getting things done!!! Arrgh. Haven't had time to fix breaks on Deuce or even go for a paddle with the dog. Long story short did breaks a few weeks ago in Dodge and had a vibration that felt a lot like out of balance tires. Balanced them up, one was off 4oz but vibration still there, round and round I went everyday after work till I was convinced it was a u-joint, nope, finally I decided that the 20yr old truck must have a bent axle (it "looked" like it was moving elliptical in gear on jack stands, didn't put a dial indicator on it though. But fortunately in my lack of ambition to rip my axle apart I decided to floor it in gear stripped down with no wheels or drums on and low and behold no vibration!!!! Further testing proved it was the left drum, which is new by the way!! Ordered a new drum all better but took old one to my friends shop and made a way to mount on his machine, just out of curiosity it took us 34oz of tape weights before the machine stopped going straight to "error"!!! Guess this one missed the quality control department. I can't believe I didn't feel it in the break pedal!! Oh well done. And now on to Deuce. Found the wheel cylinder rebuild kit at a NAPA in Brattleboro, got the cross reference number from searching this site. Thank you "SS"!! Hopefully rip apart this week and back together by next weekend, got logs to move!! Can I call into work "busy"? I never get sick (knock on wood) so my sick time no good anyway. I need "busy" time instead cuz I hate using my meager vacation time for more work at home!! Ha

 

[5ivepenny]

sugested Dot 5 inventory

Got my NAPA rebuild kit on order and lots of blocks of wood for cribbing, I plan to check all 6 brakes while I am tearing into it. Hope to start this weekend and will take photos to document. I am going to order some Dot 5 from the Iris Industries vendor referenced in an earlier post. Does anyone have a suggestion on a reasonable quantity to order for this job and inventory for future maintenance? I was thinking 2 pints would be more than enough for this job if it goes well, but maybe a gallon for inventory as this may not be my last break job ever. Any opinions? I suppose if $ is no object then obviously the more the merrier but I am not looking to start my own brake fluid storage warehouse so realistic quantities please if you do weigh in. I only have the one truck after all. Thank you! And also thank you to all for the great references, it helped me get my research done....nothing left to do but learn by doing now!!

 

[73m819]

2 pints, think 1 gal. at least, doubt 2 pints will fill the system, the truck is NOT a pick up with pick up size brake parts.

 

[5ivepenny]

err...meant 2 quarts....been a long day, and a Monday, not doing conversions very well tonight. Yes I was thinking 1 gallon originally as a gut feeling for having plenty on hand and some extra but then second guessed myself. Thanks for the input.

 

[hndrsonj]

Somewhere there was a post on the different types of springs.... Make sure your kit has the tapered springs like these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...Wheel-Cylinder-Kit-Front/_/R-UBP45_0247624673
The other springs look cylindrical.

 

[LiveFreeOrDieTryn2B]

Check your hard lines too they rust inside out ask me how I know.I switched to dot3 all new wheel cylinders,dot5 sludge in all wheel cylinders rebuilt my air pack and rebuilt my master cylinder copper Nickel brake lines new soft lines am going to replace master cylinder soon because the kit was NOS cup had flat spot from shelf life, never skimp on your brakes.

 

[NovacaineFix]

Check your hard lines too they rust inside out ask me how I know.I switched to dot3 all new wheel cylinders,dot5 sludge in all wheel cylinders rebuilt my air pack and rebuilt my master cylinder copper Nickel brake lines new soft lines am going to replace master cylinder soon because the kit was NOS cup had flat spot from shelf life, never skimp on your brakes.

I was wondering, not that I'm saying you're wrong for doing it, but why would you switch from DOT 5 to DOT 3? Dot 5 has almost a 100° better rating for heat.

The only advantage I can see is when it comes to bleeding your brakes, where the silicone based DOT 5 can absorb air and create air pockets when trying to bleed out the brakes.

Just curious.

 

[LiveFreeOrDieTryn2B]

It pushes the moisture out to the metal and because you can't bleed it all out with the way the wheel cylinders are designed the bleeder is up top not on the bottom dot3 holds the moisture in the fluid all my lines and wheel cylinders were shot its just my preference plus its cheaper and more readily available.

 

[LiveFreeOrDieTryn2B]

On a side note I use my tranny to slow Down for the most part and try not to ride my brakes just another preference.

 

[NovacaineFix]

It pushes the moisture out to the metal and because you can't bleed it all out with the way the wheel cylinders are designed the bleeder is up top not on the bottom dot3 holds the moisture in the fluid all my lines and wheel cylinders were shot its just my preference plus its cheaper and more readily available.

Sounds like a decent choice. I know that not every parts store carries DOT 5 and if they do, how long has it been sitting on the shelf.

 

[rustystud]

I was wondering, not that I'm saying you're wrong for doing it, but why would you switch from DOT 5 to DOT 3? Dot 5 has almost a 100° better rating for heat.

The only advantage I can see is when it comes to bleeding your brakes, where the silicone based DOT 5 can absorb air and create air pockets when trying to bleed out the brakes.

Just curious.

The is only two reasons not to use DOT 5 brake fluid. One is cost, and the second is if you have anti-lock brakes. The fluid is easy to come by and is so far superior to DOT 3 that it's not even funny. The excuse that it causes rust in your system is really a fallacy. Yes DOT 5 fluid does NOT absorb water, but why in the world do you have your system open to the elements ? These trucks have had this fluid in them for 50 years and the brakes are still working ! Try that with DOT 3 fluid. Trust me it won't happen. Plus your are suppose to check your brakes every 2 years. That means bleeding them also. With silicone you don't have to totally bleed them out like you are suppose to do with DOT 3. You just have to crack the bleeder valve and make sure there is no air in the system. DOT 5 fluid does not go bad over time like DOT 3 does so there is no reason to completely drain the system.

 

[rustystud]

Sounds like a decent choice. I know that not every parts store carries DOT 5 and if they do, how long has it been sitting on the shelf.

Like I said before DOT 5 has no shelf life.

 

[NovacaineFix]

Yes DOT 5 fluid does NOT absorb water, but why in the world do you have your system open to the elements ? These trucks have had this fluid in them for 50 years and the brakes are still working ! Try that with DOT 3 fluid.

I understand where you're coming from, DOT 5 does cost a lot more that DOT 3, 4 & 5.1.

And yes ABS does not like silicone due to the actuators will squeeze the air out of DOT 5 and create havoc on the system. DOT 5 does not absorb water, since it is silicone based and not glycol based like 3, 4 or 5.1. As you know from your ASE Master Tech experience, the water absorbed from the glycol based fluids comes from the heating and cooling of the brake parts and any moisture absorbed by the fluid when it is exposed to air, but you knew that already. Hence the reason wheel cylinders and calipers on civi vehicles go bad when not well maintained.

I would agree with you and say that DOT 5 is far superior, especially for larger trucks like the Deuces and 5-tons, that is why I was asking LiveFreeOrDieTryn2B why he made that choice, but that is his preference, he said.

 

[5ivepenny]

... this is also for 4 gallons, plenty for the deuce plus extra, it would be okay to maybe get 1 gallon, 2 to be safe,

4 gallons worked for me, with shipping, because I will also use it in my M715, probably with my 1985 GMC truck if I get that ready. NO ABS with DOT 5, rapid pulsing of the brakes would actually cause DOT 5 to froth and create bubbles.



NOTEOT 5.1 is not the same as DOT 5, it is actually more like DOT 4, but different heat characteristics

I knew I had a gallon in my head for some reason. I didn't realize you already answered the quantity question. Thank you. I checked almost everywhere in Keene yesterday and everyone carries the same generic brand 8oz bottles for anywhere from $12-20. So bulk is definitely the way to go. I am going to check with the motorcycle shop today before I order since a lot of bikes use Dot 5, just to comparison shop a little. Thanks again.

 

[5ivepenny]

Dot 3 versus Dot 5

On the 3 vs. 5 debate, you guys touched on a curiosity of mine, I would like to hear more input. What is involved in the conversion? Do you need special seals and hoses for one fluid or the other? I did a little research when I first noticed my brake leak, only because Dot 3 is so much cheaper, but didn't get very far. My personal experience with motorcycles is that Dot 5 is better. Obviously in a perfect world all maintenance on any machine would be done in a timely fashion but I know that motorcycles get left in a shed for years on end sometimes. All the ones that I have recovered with Dot 3 needed the brake system completely flushed out and sometimes rebuilt due to this weird gooey sludge and all the Dot 5 ones were usually fine. Now of course there could be lots of other factors I am not considering, I am just sharing to give some reference to my experience. I am not claiming to be an expert, just sharing my experience with the 10 or so bikes I have messed around with.

So as far as my Deuce goes I was considering researching the conversion to Dot 3 since its cheaper and I plan to use the truck frequently and maintain, so long term storage should not be an issue. But then I remembered what some people say about "plans" and I also remembered an old timer used to always say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" So I didn't research anymore and am sticking with Dot 5.
However since it was brought up, I am still curious as to other peoples experiences and motivations for doing the conversion or sticking with 5. Not looking to start a "my way is better" war, just collecting opinions and experiences if anyone wants to share....politely. Thank you.