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brakes locking up

aboonski

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West Melbourne Florida
Actually I thought about putting an air pressure guage on the purge valve that you see in the photo and still may do so. This is not for everybody of course but my modification works well for me. There is an audible sound of air escaping from the shutoff valve almost all the time - this is bad! There should not be any air flowing into the air pack unless you are applying brakes. I have found that I can sometimes tap hard on the brake pedal and the flow of air will stop coming out of the valve. I have a replacement air pack but have not taken the time to install it. I plan to do this before the Moving Wall Reunion takes place here in Melbourne Florida wher I hope to do a static display with my M35A2C.
 

ecbarnum

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Palmdale, CA
It is very important that when the brake pedal is released that the master cylinder pushrod have a mechanical gap between the pushing end and the master cylinder receiving cup. This assures allowing the master cylinder piston to bottom out opening the vent port in the piston which connects the master cylinder's fluid reservoir to the brake line, dumping the brake line pressure.

Since this important gap is hidden from being easily measured or viewed by the master cylinder's cup shaped input and rubber dust boot, in the TM you set this gap instead by adjusting the brake pedal freeplay.

There is a chance to miconscrue the squishy inital feel of the brake shoe contact with the drums into the stiff feel of direct force transfer between pedal and wheels as as freeplay, since at least on my truck that squishy distance was within the desired freeplay spec. But that is not the freeplay you are desiring to introduce. You actually want the brake pedal freeplay to be an honest to gosh mechanical gap / slop between the pedal linkage pushrod and the master cylinder piston input cup.

This is important because the air pack works due to differential pressure between the master cylinder line and the wheel brake line(s). It doesn't amplify the master cylinder pressure, it amplifies the quantity of brake fluid flow. Small quantity from the master cylinder, larger quantity to all the wheel cylinders, same pressure both sides.

Higher master cylinder pressure than wheel line pressure causes the air pack piston to move to push more fluid into the wheel lines. Lower master cylinder pressure than wheel line pressure lets the air pack return fluid to the master cylinder and the air pack piston moves to draw in fluid from the wheel cylinders.

However, NO differential pressure between the master cylinder and the wheel lines, and the air pack piston is happy staying wherever it is. The piston doesn't move either way. although with vibration and what not it seems to be biased towards slowly pushing out. This lack of difference pressure doesn't meen there is no pressure. This is the condition I believe you are in when the brakes are slowly applying themselves and you get increasingly hard brake pedal feel. The air pack piston is slowly pushing the fluid out of the air pack but there's no differential pressure buildup to correct the issue.

I shared a "brakes slowly applying themselves" near death experience with my father in law on our first night out with my 'new to me M185A3'. I entered slightly distracted into what turned out to be a hairpin exit ramp far too fast, was afflicted with a rather poorly timed total brake loss (momentary function then pedal to the floor), and pretty sure I got the truck up onto 5 wheels before deciding I'd rather go straight thru the guardrail and kill the truck and than die rolling it sideways. Pretty stinkin scarey...

But with the help of that guard rail and a still inexplicable miracle, and maybe even some slow motion, we returned to weight on wheels, remained on the off ramp, and were able to cautiously get into a conveinence store parking lot.

Before the shock of the whole situation had completely wore off I got to use one of my brand new fire extinguishers to extinguish the subsequent fluid fed brake fire.

We misdiagnosed the whole ordeal as having been caused by a hung wheel cylinder, and replaced all 6 wheel cylinders, shoes, and a drum. Didn't want that to happen again, ever. Of course it did, except based on the recent experience we figured it out before it got dangerous.

Next I replaced the air pack. 35 driving minutes later we were stopped again on the side of the road, brakes firmly set, waiting for them to release themselves while our rental car was being delivered. After contemplating Virginia's beautiful autumn foilage for awhile, found the brakes weren't releasing themselves and wouldn't release when I dumped the air resevoirs. Called to my parts supplier and learned that I needed to vent the fluid out of the wheel cylinders to make things right again. That worked, found a good place to leave the truck and took the rental to the airport to go back home.

I had weeks to study up on the system and mull my problems over and over. I decided to replace the air pack again, it was the only thing that could activate the brakes. I must've got a bad one. Back at the truck, we bought all the remaining DOT5 fluid in Franklin, changed out the air pack for the second time, installed a cab mounted brake fluid reservoir on (a la Roscoe Equipment's project instructions), put a BrakeSmart hydraulic pressure sensing trailer brake controller on, and got the brake shoes adjusted to the TM specs.

That didn't fix it either. At least with the brake adjustment all 6 wheels were heating up evenly, where prior they were heating unevenly. But with the bleeding workaround, travelled all the way from Franklin, Virginia to Cedar Park, Texas stopping every 30 to 55 minutes along the way to dump a tablespoon or so of fluid to keep the creeping pressure below the shoe/drum contact point.

The pressure at which the brakes start to drag seemed to be around 30 psi. This is below the threshold for the Brakesmart display so I had to figure this out from meter readings. After each bleeding the pressure read zero. After any brake application my pressure read maybe 15 psi, and from there it would slowly creep up till the brakes started dragging.

I read on the internet that once a shoe starts to drag, the heat warms the brake fluid in that wheel cylinder which causes it to expand, which makes the shoe drag harder, increasing the heat which increases the pressure, etc. until the fluid starts boiling or until a cylinder seal fails.

In Cedar Park, Texas, where the Comfort Inn there has a Texas shaped waffle iron, in an effort to delay our mornings departure in the hope that the light rain would clear up shortly, I finally discovered the real cause of my $6000+ problem - the master cylinder pushrod was mis-rigged.

The fact that the brake pedal gets harder (pushes back more and more) as you drive indicates that there is pressure pushing back against the master cylinder piston. Where does this pressure come from? It can come from the expanding oil or from the air pack piston pushing fluid out of the air pack. When the air pack piston moves, it works like a second master cylinder, working the wheel cylinders this also pushing back on the actual master cylinder, which is felt on the brake pedal.

But how can the air pack push back on the brake pedal? Well as long as the brake pedal is being pushed by your foot, or by the pushrod being adjusted too long, the air pack piston can push back against it just fine.

But at the very end of its travel, the master cylinder does one more thing that even after I had read through it several times it didn't really click how important it was... At the end of its travel, the master cylinder vents the brake line fluid back into its reservoir. Zero psig. No significant pressure can develope on the brake line with the vent port open.

So if the pedal's released and the pushrod is not too long, the master cylinder will be pushed back by any back pressure (as well as its internal spring) until the vent port is opened, dumping any pressure to the reservoir. With no pressure on the master cylinder side and residual pressure on the wheel cylinder side the air pack piston will be moved full brakes released.
 

bigmike

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WOW!

Now that is a very detailed expanation...thanks for the details. I'm gonna climb under this morning and check it out.
 

WillWagner

The Person You Were Warned About As A Child
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That was a great write up. Maybe that needs to be condensed a bit and a sticky made of it?
 

54reo

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Location
Chester IL
My multi-fuel M35 was exhibiting the same symptoms, the increasingly higher brake pedal and dragging brakes. The adjustable master cylinder push rod has a jam nut to maintain the adjustment. This jam nut had become loose, resulting in the push rod to become too long. This would not allow the brakes to release.

Five minutes with a couple of wrenches, and I was back on the road. Just be sure to maintain about a 1/2" of free play in the brake pedal.
 

vtdeucedriver

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Location
Vermont
Re: RE: Temporary fix for air pack problem

jwaller said:
so I guessing that all of us 5T owners should also be adding air tool oil to the 5T airpack as well? seeing as how its more or less the same system, just larger?

Yes..................My 5 ton had the same issue last summer. I had a sticky airpack. I got a metal oil service can that I squirt a shot in every now and again..............Now this being said. I had this discussion with John Tennis. I had never oiled my airpacks in the deuces and either had john. Once he started, he started having brake problems. So its kinda dam if you do or dam if you dont. I think I am on the recommend side now, that and just pull the plug every now and again. When the brakes froze last summer, I drained about a 1/2 qt of water out of the airpack. :shock:


The pic is of the truck sitting pretty but the brakes were still hot and the pedal was stiff!!!
Remember Ross????? AKA Acetomatoco
 

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vtdeucedriver

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54reo said:
My multi-fuel M35 was exhibiting the same symptoms, the increasingly higher brake pedal and dragging brakes. The adjustable master cylinder push rod has a jam nut to maintain the adjustment. This jam nut had become loose, resulting in the push rod to become too long. This would not allow the brakes to release.

Five minutes with a couple of wrenches, and I was back on the road. Just be sure to maintain about a 1/2" of free play in the brake pedal.

My friend "the chief", hammered into me about freeplay adjustment. In Vietnam, he painted 2 white bands on the brake and clutch for freeplay adjustments. Then during his inspections, he could check his vehicles.

God bless Rodney.............I still remember!
 

WillWagner

The Person You Were Warned About As A Child
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I'd say yes, add a bit of marvel mystery oil every now and then. Jeff, funny you should mention white lines painted on the clutch and brake pedal shafts. Mine has the same marks. The clutch mark is at the free play limit and the same for the brakes.
 

Jake0147

Member
782
18
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Location
Panton, VT
Only if it's plugged I believe. If it's still all connected, it vents inside of the slobber tube on the engine, it's pretty dificult to hear if the engine's running. According to what I've read, the separation of the vent line is an attempt to reduce condensation of water inside the brake master cylinder.
 

jatonka

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Location
Ephratah, New York
deuce brakes locking up

I would like to mention that the correct oil for the airpak is OHT (oil,hydraulic,temperate)
I use air tool oil made by Marvel in my air tools.
I use Marvel Mystery Oil in my oil, transmissions and fuel systems.
I use OHT in my airpaks. It is specified in PS magazine articles and in maintainence manuals. John Tennis
 

bigmike

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Dixon CA.
RE: deuce brakes locking up

Here is an update on my issues...
I started by flushing my entire hydrolic brake system. I started with the tried and true method of "pump the pedal, hold, bleed, pump the pedal blah blah blah" Well, after about 30 minutes of that S%$T, I hooked up WillWagners weed sprayer, brake bleeder thingy and WOW! This is absolutely the only way to go. I put about a gallon of DOT 5 in the sprayer, pumped it up and started bleeding.
I started at the front and went backwords in order to flush out all the fluid. I blead them until the fluid ran clear. Let me tell ya, old DOT 5 is amber colored and very thick.
After flushing the wheels and the airpack, I then blead from the rear wheel forward.

I bought a 3/8" drive 9/32" 4 point socket from Mcmaster Carr for $5.00. It's funny how the ONLY 4 point socket available from Mcmastercarr is a 9/32". Anyway, that made easy work of the square plug in the back of my airpack. When I opened it up, no brake fluid came out and the back of the plug was clean and dry so I squirted some air tool oil in there...just a couple of squirts, and closed that up.

I checked the free play by removing the return spring and pulling the pin from the master cylinder push rod. I then could hold the push rod in with my fingers and hold the pedal up with the other hand. Now, I aligned the pushrod and the pedal and when I tried to put the pin in "without applying too much force on the push rod", I noticed the push rod had to push into the master cylinder about 1/8" in order for the pin to align.
This tells me there was NEGATIVE free play even though it was only about 1/8". I adjusted the freeplay per the TM 1/4" to 1/2" measured at the pedal.

So now, my pedal has just a bit of free play, it goes down about half way pretty easy, then it gets stiff then stops about 1" off the floor. As I pump the pedal, the air goes down on the guage and I can hear the air moving thru the system. As I continue to pump the pedal, it does not climb up. My only issue now is that the truck doesn't stop as quickly as it should so today and tomorrow, I'm gonna pull all the wheels, de-glaze the pads, re-adjust the brakes, pack a bit more grease in the bearings "since I'm there".

I'll post some pics of my findings
 

bigmike

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update on my locking brakes problem

So, here is where i am.

I pulled the wheels and drums. The drums used to be painted...that burnt off (see pic below).

The pads were pretty burnt so I sanded them to de-glaze them. I then re-adjusted the pads to .010" top and bottom. I know the T.M. says .010" on the bottom and .020" on the top.

I ran the truck up and down my driveway pumping the pedal continuously. I had a bit of air in the system which allowed the pedal to go all the way to the floor and still stop the truck "not recommended on a regular road". After "shocking" the system, I bled the wheels again. WHOOLAH! The truck stops on a dime and I have tons of pedal. I can hear the air going in and out of the airpack as well.

It sounds crazy but putting in some air allowed me to really work the piston and the fluid thru the entire system to flush any yucky stuff.

Here are pics.
 

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ecbarnum

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My old fuid came out amber and lumpy too. I ran three or four bottles thru my lines before it got clear purple. That was a lot easier the second time around after installing the remote reservoir kit. I figured my old fluid was DOT 3 or 4 rather than 5, which is deliberately purple. My truck has the DOT 5 conversion sticker on the dash board though. Will know in a couple years if the DOT5 changes color with age. Or maybe it changes color with heat. Read that mixing 3 or 4 with 5 can cause lumpiness.

With 0.020 TM adjustment on brakes I went to about half pedal too. They've since been re-adjusted much closer (following an pair of axle seal changeouts) so the pedal action is taller but I think they're too close and are dragging slightly again. Might need to learn how to adjust them myself as you have done...

Curiosity finally got me to take apart the new master cylinder I didn't use (yet) for pictures. The cup seal needs to retract back past the little vent to dump the brake pressure. While studying up on it I read that the little vent can get plugged (maybe on this site?). If that happened you'd might get the slowly self applying self applying brake effect in spite of having correct freeplay. But it looks like you could clear it in place with a wire in a pinch. Guessing the pumping action works thru the big vent , where with a vacuum on the brake end it would suck fluid in around the cup seal thru the flapper checks. Without a vacuum (such as with my wheel cylinder blowout) don't think you'd get much pumping effect. I didn't think of trying pumping during my brake loss but have since read that's something to try if you have a brake failure.

The Construction Mechanic Basic Volume 2 on www.tpub.com has a couple pages on the air-hydraulic brake system air pack and master cylinder. The air pack diagram below is from that doc.
 

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bigmike

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Well, I just got back from a 200 mile road trip and I still think I have brake issues.

When I tool around town, I don't seem to have any brake issues. Pedal is high, pedal feels good, air goes down when I use the brakes etc. Now, I head out onto the highway. As long as I don't use the brakes, no issues. If I touch the brake pedal, I can feel it is higher. The truck stops good but I have a higher pedal. If I use the brakes more, the pedal gets higher and higher and I begin to lock up the wheel cylinders.

I put in the 1/4 -1/2" free play and I put a bit of oil in the air pak and the air pak sounds good and isn't blowing brake fluid out the piston seal.

I adjusted my brake pads .010" at the top and bottom. Is thermal expansion going on the the axles taking up the slack or what? I hate to do it, but I think i've got to change my airpak. I just am not convinced it's bad!

POOP!!!! I think i'm gonna get some holy water and call a priest.
 

kurtkds

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Puyallup, WA
It sounds like to me you need to put your gap to .020 to allow for thermal expansion during hard long braking.

I had an old truck the the e=brake cable would hand up on. The truck would work fine at first but once you started working the brakes it would start dragging until it would lock up.
 
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