Caiman MRAP

[73m819]

I was NOT trying to be a smart a$$ when I asked my question, It makes people wonder when you SEE and lay hands on 2 and 3 axle MRAPS with "POLICE/DHS", "POLICE/TSA", "DHS" or "TSA", ect. on the side, and this along with the UPARMORED HMMWVS with RING MOUNTS that are ALSO being accquired ALL OVER this country sorta brings that question to mind, I am NOT trying nor do I WANT to get POLITICAL, It is just that I READ and STUDY HISTORY. At one in time in HISTORY the exact same reasons that was given for UPARMORING are being given NOW. Some of you may just think this is just a bunch of BS but it a proven fact that HISTORY tends to REPEAT it self, people tend to ignore history and say "IT CAN NOT HAPPEN TO US"

HISTORY is the greatest teacher for the future.

 

[Gunzy]

Yes, 73m819, you are correct. This has happened before and nothing good ever came from it. The militarization of the police forces is just one of many steps taken in the wrong direction. Read history books about 1930s Europe.

 

[73m819]

Why do you need an M819 which was designed for recovering downed aircraft? Why does anyone need a bandana? Their only purpose is for disguise during a bank robbery. I don't expect all of you outside of law enforcement to completely understand but gheez, foil hats? These are not federal agencies. Be more concerned with DHS and their ammo purchase.

Oh, the MRAP is more designed to protect occupants, not deliver munitions. We have M1s and Bradleys for that.

All you need to do is be on a perimeter of a barricaded suspect holed up in a meth lab and you will see why the protection is needed.
This happens more than you think.

I need the m819 which was REpurposed to lift SWISS's spare 6602 engine out of the trailer and store it and lift his new to him trans out of it's transport trailer.
I need a "BANDANA" to keep my BALD head from getting sun BURNED, nobody is supposed to know that I was a bank robber (darn it now when I buy the complete 41 DIAMOND T 4t wrecker with a NEW motor with 20 hours on it, everyone will know where I got the 10k), now I have been accused of being a gang member because of the color, that is why I switched to CAMO, the colors of a GANG that I am proud to be a member of.

 

[73m819]

This is a GOOD discussion, if it get POLITICAL it goes.

 

[swbradley1]

Ron, You should be wearing a helmet. It offers better protection and can be used to swat at CUCVs.

 

[swbradley1]

I had always wondered why I saw MRAP bodies on trucks headed south on a state route close to where I work. They build them in Fairfield, OH.

 

[silverstate55]

I was NOT trying to be a smart a$$ when I asked my question, It makes people wonder when you SEE 2 and 3 axle MRAPS with "POLICE/DHS", "POLICE/TSA", "DHS" or "TSA", ect. on the side, and this along with the UPARMORED HMMWVS with RING MOUNTS that are ALSO being accquired ALL OVER this country sorta brings that question to mind, I am NOT trying nor do I WANT to get POLITICAL, It is just that I READ and STUDY HISTORY. At one in time in HISTORY the exact same reasons that was given for UPARMORING are being given NOW. Some of you may just think this is just a bunch of BS but it a proven fact that HISTORY tends to REPEAT it self, people tend to ignore history and say "IT CAN NOT HAPPEN TO US"

HISTORY is the greatest teacher for the future.

Ron, my apologies; I didn't mean it that way. Please understand that state/local law enforcement has a much DIFFERENT mission than federal agencies...I too worry about DHS & other fed agencies that are quietly up-armoring and stockpiling (as Recovry4x4 pointed out already). Your state/local LE agencies are FIRST RESPONDERS...in the case of an active shooter or other critical incident, they are first on the scene and the ones everyone expects to control & safely resolve the dangerous situations. The FBI & other fed agencies only get involved long after First Responders do, and usually only after a request from the jurisdictional agency. Your local LE agencies are the ones you expect to take control of volatile situations and safely resolve them, and safeguard your tax dollars. This is what they are trying to do with the MRAPs.

The "militarization" of the police forces across the country are a direct result of the different threats we face today...like I mentioned earlier, look at the increase of active shooters, mass shooters, home-grown bombers, et al... to see what we are faced with. We still have to deal with the "normal" and "usual" threats that we always have (bad guys with assault rifles, lots of bullets, body armor, and an increased resolve to see their dangerous actions through to a violent, deadly end) but we also now have to deal with an increased probability of terrorist acts on our soil. Mumbai and the mall massacre in Kenya recently really pose a problem for domestic law enforcement agencies; MRAPs would definitely be a viable tool to protect the public from such catastrophes, and if the LE agencies get them for free/cheap, why not? They're very unlikely to be used against law-abiding citizens, unless those citizens pose an IMMEDIATE deadly force threat.

Your state/local LE agencies are the ones who are tasked with keeping you safe and are accountable to the public...they are simply trying to make sure that if the worst-case scenario happens around them, that they are better prepared to quickly & safely diffuse it.

 

[silverstate55]

This is a GOOD discussion, if it get POLITICAL it goes.

No sir, I won't get political...to many facts get in the way in this case.

Look back at the violent bank robbery in Los Angeles in the mid-90s...the LAPD could not deal with such a threat with only 4 rounds of 00-buck and 9mm pistols. They weren't authorized to carry nor use rifles, let alone AR15s, yet some officers had to commandeer them from a local gun store (as well as commandeer a private armored truck to evacuate wounded) to try to contain the threat. Those suspects were randomly firing hundreds of AK47 rounds all over the place, and the danger to bystanders and the public was overhwhelming. Luck was on the side of the LAPD that day, thank GOD. Tactical teams (SWAT officers) have to be called up, or called in from other areas of town where they might be operating, which takes lots of time. Officers on the scene should have the proper tools (and training, can't carry the gear without it) to deal with such threats, in order to quickly contain/resolve it while minimizing the danger to the public. When we do such a thing, we are accused of becoming "paramilitary forces" which is quite unfair...we don the gear when we need it, then stow it when we don't. The last thing I want to do in 115-degree summer heat (and when the ground is 160-185 degrees) is to have to wear any extra gear/armor if we don't have to. Just sit on a perimeter with a Kevlar helmet & tactical vest for a couple of hours in the summer time, and you will do almost anything to avoid ever having to do that again! BUT, if we don't do it, who will?

 

[silverstate55]

The probabilities of active shooters continuing to do their evil deeds here in this country are way too high; in addition to trying to contain the shooter(s) and prevent further death/injuries, we are also tasked with tending to & evacuating wounded. I know that YOU KNOW first hand, Ron, the dangers of tending to & evacuating wounded people while under fire. The first task for an MRAP would be to immediately provide cover to evacuate wounded under fire. This is our standard protocol.

Militarization of federal agencies IS a concern...state/local agencies, not so much; we have too many other things to worry about than trying to become like the military. If local thefts & burglaries are out of control but yet the local LE agency is ignoring it to purchase MRAPs and practice SWAT tactics, that sheriff/chief isn't going to last long there and there WILL be a change of command and change of policing...locals will be burning up the phone lines & taking over council meetings with their local elected reps to bear pressure on the LE chief/sheriff to bring about a change in priorities. Especially if that LE CIC is elected vs. appointed.

My agency has specific plans AND TRAINING for all patrol officers to undergo and understand in the event of a major catastrophe and/or active shooter. And NO, it does NOT include going door-to-door to confiscate legally-owned firearms nor FMVs...there aren't enough police officers in the world for that, it is logistically impossible.

Yes, I carry my own AR15 rifle on duty. After 8 years in the USMC (including being a PMI), 21+ years of big-city law enforcement experience, years of being an NRA-certified LE firearms trainer, and having to qualify with my rifle at the range EVERY 3 MONTHS, wouldn't you feel better with someone like me carrying a rifle & tactical gear on duty, or would you rather have someone just out of college with a worthless criminal justice degree and no life experience showing up with those "special" federal acronyms all over themselves? Not to mention that as an NRA Life Member, MVPA member, and a resident of the community I serve, I do NOT want to see the so-called "militarization" of police agencies below the federal level...we have too much to lose. I also don't see it happening...we are simply trying to be better capable of responding to military-type threats without having to wait hours or days for the feds or military to respond.

Research what happened in Mumbai as well as the LAPD bank robbery around 1995, and the recent Kenyan mall massacre. We don't want those to happen in our communities.

 

[silverstate55]

7,500 miles on it. We are going to paint it. We also have a Dragoon AFV we are restoring.

We need pics!!

 

[silverstate55]

I should add that these MRAPs are not likely to be used on everyday patrols...they might as well have "For Emergency Use Only" stencilled on them. Well, the non-federal agency MRAPs anyway.

 

[porkysplace]

No sir, I won't get political...to many facts get in the way in this case.

Look back at the violent bank robbery in Los Angeles in the mid-90s...the LAPD could not deal with such a threat with only 4 rounds of 00-buck and 9mm pistols. They weren't authorized to carry nor use rifles, let alone AR15s, yet some officers had to commandeer them from a local gun store (as well as commandeer a private armored truck to evacuate wounded) to try to contain the threat. Those suspects were randomly firing hundreds of AK47 rounds all over the place, and the danger to bystanders and the public was overhwhelming. Luck was on the side of the LAPD that day, thank GOD. Tactical teams (SWAT officers) have to be called up, or called in from other areas of town where they might be operating, which takes lots of time. Officers on the scene should have the proper tools (and training, can't carry the gear without it) to deal with such threats, in order to quickly contain/resolve it while minimizing the danger to the public. When we do such a thing, we are accused of becoming "paramilitary forces" which is quite unfair...we don the gear when we need it, then stow it when we don't. The last thing I want to do in 115-degree summer heat (and when the ground is 160-185 degrees) is to have to wear any extra gear/armor if we don't have to. Just sit on a perimeter with a Kevlar helmet & tactical vest for a couple of hours in the summer time, and you will do almost anything to avoid ever having to do that again! BUT, if we don't do it, who will?

The "what might happen" doesn't justify a para-military police force. Who is going to police the police ?
Last year we had a local officer who at one point was a police chief in a smaller area department kill his pregnant girlfriend while on duty . Should someone like this have access to these . The city of Flint , Mi just hired a high ranking Detroit Police officer as there chief , he help cover up the murder of a stripper at a former Detroit mayors house , but wasn't charged . Should he have access to these. There needs to be more justifacation for passing these out other than it's cool and free and I'm a cop.

 

[doghead]

Let me paraphrase a well know saying.

MRAP's don't kill people, people kill people.

The OP did not intend to discuss who should or should not have one. Anymore posts off topic will get this thread closed or deleted.

 

[goodguyzy]

I just happen to have a new radiator for a mrap. Please spare it from the scrapper.

 

[NDT]

I had always wondered why I saw MRAP bodies on trucks headed south on a state route close to where I work. They build them in Fairfield, OH.

Caimans have a MTV chassis and were/are final assembled at Stewart and Stevenson (BAE) plant in Sealy, TX.

 

[inksane]

That thing is sweet, I wish I could own one!

 

[silverstate55]

The "what might happen" doesn't justify a para-military police force. Who is going to police the police ?
Last year we had a local officer who at one point was a police chief in a smaller area department kill his pregnant girlfriend while on duty . Should someone like this have access to these . The city of Flint , Mi just hired a high ranking Detroit Police officer as there chief , he help cover up the murder of a stripper at a former Detroit mayors house , but wasn't charged . Should he have access to these. There needs to be more justifacation for passing these out other than it's cool and free and I'm a cop.

Good grief.... A few over-generalized sensational stories is hardly justification for your tinfoil hattery. Police forces are NOT "para-military" (whether they have MRAPs or not) in this country, it takes a LOT more than driving an MRAP around to become a truly para-military force. Local police are now required to face the possibilities of direct military-style assaults & violence; what better vehicle to have on hand & available than an MRAP? It sure makes evacuating wounded & injured much SAFER for all concerned, and the wounded/injured don't have to wait for hours on end until it's safe to retrieve them.

I commend agencies taking advantage of the LESO & other programs to obtain MRAPs; they can save many lives, both LE & citizens.

By your "police the police" comment, you obviously have no clue as to how internal investigations are conducted. In most large agencies nowadays, cops will investigate their own much more vigorously than they do criminals...ask me how I know. Nobody is perfect and occasionally a bad apple slips through. But for you to say that based on a few sensational news stories you read in your local media, that ALL LEOs nationwide are exactly the same is juvenile and irresponsible.

So agencies nationwide shouldn't have MRAPs because of the possibility of one officer from Michigan might use it in a violent or criminal manner? That makes no sense. Each agency that obtains an MRAP is required to have a policy on how it is to be used and who is specifically authorized to use it...they must be trained with its use. Not any old patrolman off the street can hop in and take it for a joy-ride. Same thing for carrying rifles on duty; we're required to undergo rigorous training and retraining in order to maintain proficiency with it. In my case many of my co-workers lean on me heavily for my experience with them...nobody gets issued a rifle nor an MRAP because "it's cool and free and I'm a cop."

 

[RustyM923]

I wish I had one of those for my drive to work. (through south central LA)

 

[Ferroequinologist]

I'm glad they will see some (hopefully) limited use to help local LEO's contain and control dangerous situations. Otherwise they might be scrapped or just left to rot. At least my tax dollars are being used for something that can save a life.

I bet it was pretty neat riding and driving in one. Not many outside the military get to experiance that.

My Dad was a cop for almost 30yrs. I often would hug him when he went on duty worried he wouldn't come back. I wish his department had a MRAP during some of the busts they made, crazy stories of some really bad people with really nasty weapons at their disposal. If just one MRAP in one department saves the life of one cop so he can go home to his familiy in one piece, the program is worth it in my opinion.

 

[Recovry4x4]

For those who question local law enforcement being para-military or taken over federally to strip you of your rights or freedoms, search for Oathkeepers. That alone should make you feel easier with local LEOs. Not only are they on the front line with criminals, they are leading the fight to keep you free. I'm fortunate that our agency has an extensive budget as we are a 6000 person agency. We can afford many tools smaller departments can't. Thanks to LESO, the small departments aren't limited to the 38 specials it sounds like some of you think they should be limited to.