Cannot remove hydraulic Head LDS motor 465-1c

[tonidial]

First the obligatory apology: I'm sorry if this is posted eslewhere, but I've yet to find the answer...

Here's the synopsis: I cannot remove the Hydraulic head; after reading, swearing, cranking the motor and jack shaft I came to my senses and applied some white paint with a fat finger to one tooth on the index gear of the hydraulic head thru the opening below the head where the shut off lever is located.

After cranking for 5 seconds and checking with an inspection mirror it is patently obvious the gear is NOT indexing, thereby prohibiting the removal of the hydraulic head.


My question: short of pulling the radiator and removing the entire injector pump/head/govenor assembly is there any way to get the head off? This assumes there is more work that needs to be done elsewhere, i.e. quill shaft, etc. I'm looking for guidance to prevent having to do much unecessary work to get at the problem (leaking injector pump/head)



For those who want to know the story behind the problem.....

One word Biodiesel: I pulled the take 3 years ago and clean out the system after intank pump failed to pump..... Last May the aftermarket pump quit and (surprise) the intank pump began to work in time for a Parade, then it quit again. Parked the truck in the back yard. Feb of this yes

 

[gimpyrobb]

It sure sounds like the quill shaft might be broken. Are you sure the gear didn't move? If not, I'd say its time to pull the IP. I might have a quill shaft, but I'm not sure how you would get it in and have the head timed to anything afterward. If you want to try it, I'll see if I can dig one up.

 

[tonidial]

I'm postive it's not moving now and fairly certain it did move before I tried to pull the Head. I think I cause this problem when I pulled the four keepers and nuts, and then tried to line the Head up for removal. At one point the whole Head rotated and became wedged in place, to where I had to use a socket on the Plunger Cap Screw to rotate the unit back to center.

I'm shamefully confident that may have caused my current demise.

After a cursory examination on reinstalling the Quill shaft in TM 209-2910-226-34 - it appears I might be able to do it with the unit in place; this assumes I can get the cover off the bottom of the I.P. housing from under the truck - I'll have to explore this if it's not raining when I get home.

I'm thinking if I could remove part of the broken shaft I might be able to manually index the Head - the devil would be getting the timing straight on the reassemble - this would all be infintely easier with the unit removed, but I'm trying to limit my disection to the broken stuff.

 

[m-35tom]

replacing the quill would be your only issue, timing it would be just like assymbling a fresh motor. just know how to position all the marks and you would be done. i agree, you twisted the quill off when you tried to remove the HH without knowing how. in any event, the HH only comes out in ONE position, you will need to pull the quill out and be able to turn the HH so the scribed tooth lines up.

 

[tonidial]

Popped open the hatch on the bottom of the I.P. and out fell a bushing/spacer and then I pulled out the helical gear from the bottom of the Quill shaft.

M-35Tom, do I understand you correctly that if I pull what's left of the shaft I should be able to index the Head to the correct pulling position?

Currently I can't get it to index; just the window slides back and forth. From my studing of the TM on the pump, it looks doubtful I can pull the shaft without pulling the I.P. from the motor due to one machine screw. I'll mull it over somemore tomorrow.....

Is is posssible to drop the IP/govenor and such without pulling the radiator?? I know it would be easier, but I hate to waste all the new fluid I just put in there last year.

I'll try and post pics later for those gawkers who want to see the carnage .

 

[gimpyrobb]

Yes, you can pull it with the rad. in place.

 

[kipman]

If you have monkey arms

 

[m-35tom]

if you have removed the bottom broken part of the quill shaft, you should now be able to turn the gear on the HH with a small scrfewdriver until the red tooth is lined up. now it should lift out and also the top of the quill should fall out. nope i looked and it looks like you will need to remove that machine screw. retiming the ip is tricky yet simple. see following post.

 

[tonidial]

Just a quick update: I removed the retaining screw (that holds the quill shaft) with the I.P./governor/etc in place. Pulled on the broke quill shaft and then gingerly rotated the quill shaft 'pillow block' (if you will) so that the flat spot would allow it drop out of the I.P. body. The remnants of the quill shaft and the top gear remained hung in place, but soon dropped out upon rotating the H. Head. The H.H. then freely lifted out.

I then took some pics of the carnage (I'll upload soon) and put all injectors and the stop/quill cover back on. I had to cut the H.H. gear cover off by using tin snips as the H.H. Index gear had crimped the gear cover when it rolled between the index gear of the H.H and the top of the quill shaft.

Ironically, there was NO red mark, and I've yet to find any indication on the H.H Index gear as to where it should have been rotated to to pull the H.H; i.e. no score mark.

Due to this fact I'm leaning strongly towards buying a new H.H. or at the least a rebuilt one. I recovered all the H.H. pats and the only thing that broke was the fancy retaining clip that hold the spring captive at the 'button'.

Suprisingly, the paw 'tang' that drives the index gear was in such good shape it could be mistaken for new.


I'll try to upload pics tonite (one foot out the door now)

Thanks for the replies!

 

[m-35tom]

well that is good and will make it easier to reinstall the HH. you will still need to find tdc on compression for #1 by removing the front valve cover and lining up the ip pointer. if the valves for #1 have clearance you are good, otherwise turn the engine one turn and check. now with that set, turn the engine backwards 60° and the plunger for the ip should be at the lowest point. this is where the quill shaft cover notch is aimed at the center of where the HH will be, and where the red marked tooth will line up with it's pointer.

tom

 

[tonidial]

As promised... First pic shows the crimped gear cover on the H.H. and the second shows the anatomy of a broken Quill.

Time to start parts shopping.

 

[tonidial]

Tom, Thanks.

I need to do some parts shopping first and then I'll revisit the timing; for now I've covered up, or closed up just about everything to keep the mud daubers from building nests in holes.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Want me to see if I have the quill?

 

[tonidial]

Gimpyrobb, that would be great if you could find one. P.M. what you want for it or if you'd like to trade for something I've got. I'm low on engine parts but have some other N.O.S. stuff lying around.

 

[tonidial]

OK folks - truck is back together and after purging air from the H.H. and the Injector lines I managed to get it started. At first the start was uneventful; then the engine started to increase rpms quickly, before settling back at a high idle (I'm guessing about 1200 to 1500 rpm by the sound) Being most woried about the engine 'running-away' , I immediately shut off the electric pump and pulled the stop - no help - engine kept on running. I grabbed an appropriate wrench and popped the hood - notice a spray of diesel comming from the head and took my shower in diesel while disconneting the fuel line to the secondary filter assembly. The engine stopped.

So my question is about the idle... is this symptomatic of putting the quill shaft in wrong, or could it be something else? Something else is a variable because the in-tank pump is brand new, the injectors have been rebuilt to new spec. So when I say something else I mean an adjustment elsewhere...

The quill shaft is still suspect as I tried my best to get the timing set to the right spot when reassymbling the Injector Pump on the truck.. but I found that I had to chose between one tooth rotatation clockwise, or coutner-clockwise to get close. I chose one and then rotated the jack shaft a touch to get the H.H. back on.

I expected the leaks - I'm sure one of the injector lines is loose. As for the engine stop, I'm still holding out hope that I'll find the clip somewhere under or on the truck.

 

[RAYZER]

Re: Cannot remove hydrualic Head LDS motor 465-1c

The in tank pump would have nothing to do with the high idle condition.

 

[m-35tom]

Were you running this without the govenor linkage fully clipped togeather? The only way to shut the engine off is to pull the fuel control rod to the rear which lowers the fuel control block on the HH piston. You need to take the control shaft out and be sure the little end piece is in the end of the shaft and that the linkage is firmly assymbled. Is it now correctly timed?

 

[tonidial]

The control shaft is hard to place on the engine in the truck - I 'think' it's in right, but I am missing the D clip. Previously it would not start until I reinstalled the control shaft.

As far as timing we (me and 'soldier b') cranked the engine to TDC on compression then rolled back until the Timing Mark on the IP was barely visible at the top of the window. Then I placed the Quill Shaft back into the IP... I tried to orient the crescent toward the center of the piston below the H.H..... but when the helical gear on the lower part of the shaft made contact the top rotated.... intially this cause the crescent to almost disappear to the left. I backed the shaft out and rotated one tooth in the other direction and this caused the crescent to be 3/4 to the right....this is where I left it and reassymbled. This is likely where I went wrong as I imagined the center of the crescent needed to be pointing toward the center of the piston....I tend to be a bit preoccupied with exact.

The engine idle is smooth,but high.. and given the other variables I wanted to be sure it wasn't something simple (regarding the idle) before I wave the white flag and pull the entire IP to get the timing right.

 

[m-35tom]

The control shaft is hard to place on the engine in the truck - I 'think' it's in right, but I am missing the D clip. Previously it would not start until I reinstalled the control shaft.

As far as timing we (me and 'soldier b') cranked the engine to TDC on compression then rolled back until the Timing Mark on the IP was barely visible at the top of the window. Then I placed the Quill Shaft back into the IP... I tried to orient the crescent toward the center of the piston below the H.H..... but when the helical gear on the lower part of the shaft made contact the top rotated.... intially this cause the crescent to almost disappear to the left. I backed the shaft out and rotated one tooth in the other direction and this caused the crescent to be 3/4 to the right....this is where I left it and reassymbled. This is likely where I went wrong as I imagined the center of the crescent needed to be pointing toward the center of the piston....I tend to be a bit preoccupied with exact.

The engine idle is smooth,but high.. and given the other variables I wanted to be sure it wasn't something simple (regarding the idle) before I wave the white flag and pull the entire IP to get the timing right.

still sounds like the govenor rod is not attached or the fuel control pin is not there.

 

[gimpyrobb]

yup, i would check the fuel control pin first. if you have nothing on the fuel arm and push it back toward the firewall, it should go back to the 7 oclock position when you let go.