Capability vs. Vulnerability & Sophistication vs. Complexity

[bshupe]

I would like to start a conversation about the balancing points with CUCVs although this conversation really applies to anything.

When making changes/improvements/upgrades/modifications to your CUCV where do you draw the line?

For example:

Instrumentation is great, information is useful sparkly lights are fun, but additional wiring, electrical load and complexity in general is not really desirable.

Ground clearance is absolutely required if you need to go somewhere with obstacles but if you cant get to that place via a modern road without risking your life or that of someone else or the ride is miserable or you get pulled over every mile or so for your bumpers, headlights or anything else of interest or importance is too far from the ground is it really worth it?

When doing any of these things, when do you depart from owning a CUCV and become the owner of a highly modified truck that you just happened to get from GL or otherwise started life wearing ODG? When do you cross the threshold of military history to just history?

I completely recognize that this is highly philosophical, personal and subjective but thats largely why I like it. So many of the questions here on SS are answered by the TMs, the guy at that shop or that member who did that a thousand times and in general are answerable with an objectively measurable answer that everyone can look at and agree on unless they are just trying to make trouble.

By starting this thread I knowingly put myself in harms way and fully recognize that the server could crash from the heat of the flames. On the other hand, I think this thread has the potential to be one of the more meaningful corners of this forum and people like me stand to learn a great deal from the "true believers" on this site and perhaps from the element that just wants a solid piece of American iron from which to develop some radical tree climbing rooster-tailing 4x4. I think no comments will be as effective and flame throwing so maybe if you think Im an utter fool and have just wasted 5 minutes of my life writing all this down just dont post anything. I will get the message just the same and likely just delete this first post to triage the situation and wait for a mod to relegate the whole mess to zeros on the HDD.

 

[Onestar]

I also think this is a good topic. I have a M1009 I would like to improve the off road capabilities but not completly destroy the military aspect of it. It would be interesting to see how others feel about this. I have a 4" lift I am going to install, I would also like to swap in different axles. Possibly a radio for driving pleasure, I would even like to use is as my daily driver, it gets a decent amount of driving now. In my opinion one of the things that makes these so different from other vehicles is the motors and how raw they are. By that I mean the lack of radio, air conditioning, and all the other bells and whistles other vehicles come with. I also think how simple they are to trouble shoot and work on is another great feature of these.

 

[Sharecropper]

Well........... ahem .......... I will be the first to respond.

1.) - I am preparing to install oil pressure and temperature gauges in my M1028 because I don't want a malfunctioning idiot light to lead to the destruction of my 12,800 original mile engine. It has nothing to do with desire, ego, or testosterone. It just makes sense.

2.) - Secondly, I am totally against raising any military truck, especially the CUCVs. However raising my truck was the only, and I mean only, way to fit my 11.00/20 NDT wheels & tires under the fenders. If I could have obtained clearance without raising it, you betcha I would have forgone the time, effort, and expense.

3.) - To heck with the threshold, I wanted my truck to be, well, like I wanted it to be, instead of being judged by other folks who I have never met and will probably never meet. If the CUCV Judges disqualify my truck, that works for me.

4.) - This site has been invaluable to me during my rebuild. There is no way that I could have achieved my intended result without the comments and assistance of other SS members. Anytime I see a new thread (like this one), I always try to post a comment IF I BELIEVE I CAN HELP THE OP.

5.) - I have been involved in numerous associations over the past 50 years, and there are always extremists in every group. After 2 major back surgeries and a heart attack which almost killed me, I have adopted a peaceful, neutral attitude of Live and Let Live. If a fellow SS member wants to chop his truck up to mud bog, works for me. At the same time, if another fellow SS member wants to rebuild and restore his vehicle back to perfect original condition, I admire that too. The bottom line is, we all are fortunate to live in a country where we are free to do whatever we want to do, and think however we want to think. The trouble seems to start when one person or a group of people try to change the thinking of another person or group. Please forgive me for saying this, but your post seems to incite such thoughts. However rest assured, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Hope this helps.

 

[Keith_J]

Keeping the CUCV KISS is admirable, yet there are some things I must have. Anyone with a 1010 or 1031 needs a rear view camera. They aren't expensive or complex, there is even a wireless one although that might need a battery. On the 1031, you could hide a good battery pack in the rear clearance lamp housing and if using rechargable batteries, they could recharge off the clearance lights. Still, it is simple to run the wiring for a camera alongside the wiring for the lights.

Now, comfort is also a must which is why I am installing an air conditioner. But I am keeping the stock alternators by making it 28 volt powered. I figure the truck needs 30 amperes off the front battery, leaving another 30 amps at 12 volts on the back for the blower and 70 amps of 28 volts to power the compressor. The motor is switched with a heavy-duty solenoid relay, just as if the relay were the clutch. The motor is direct drive through a Lovejoy coupling. I left the pulley on the compressor since it allowed me to spin it to determine the center on the back side, see the target? That is for alignment purposes, I'm well within the allowed alignment. The motor has shaft centers on both ends for alignment.

I disassembled the clutch on the compressor to join the hub to the coupling. It is within 0.003" of center, based on the OD of the L095 coupling half.

The compressor mounts under the truck, on the frame rails under the passenger seat. This puts it in good cool airflow. Condenser is mounted in front of the radiator. Evaporator is a compact under dash unit.

The compressor is a Sanden SD7B100, a small 7 cylinder unit with peak efficiency at about 2000 RPM, the motor is a 3000 RPM at 24 volts. Running it at 28 volts will push the speed up but it will load down to 2000 RPM during maximum AC demand.

 

[Hasdrubal]

Its my personal belief, that a kick a** stereo system is a necessity in my M1009.

 

[jaymcb]

my 1009 came with civvy paint, civvy wheels and a radio.

that's about as civvy as it is going to get.

 

[wayne pick]

bshupe, Exelent write up. One of the most coherent threads i've seen here.

 

[dependable]

It is your truck, do what you think is cool and fun. It is not like CUCVs are that rare or special.

That said, here are some observations and opinions since you asked:

Raising the body off the truck only increases ground clearance if you increase tire diameter. The axles and differentials can still hang up or get stuck in mud even if truck is 4 ft off the ground.

Higher center of gravity reduces stability and high speed handling.

The higher the truck, the more it will chew though u joints, tires and steering parts.

I agree with the KISS principal in daily drivers and work trucks. The stock CUCV has simple systems that are easy to maintain, especially compared to modern vehicles. To me, that is their best asset.

If you want to add lasting value to you CUCV, go in the direction of Devilman96's build thread.

 

[bshupe]

dependable: I find it interesting that your initial comment is suicidal. If we all say they arent special and/or rare then they surely will be.

That is not to say that I disagree, it is only an observation.

Thanks for everyone's input so far and encouragement. I really do enjoy it.

 

[dependable]

dependable: I find it interesting that your initial comment is suicidal. If we all say they arent special and/or rare then they surely will be.

That is not to say that I disagree, it is only an observation.

it.

Then my stock ones will be rarer.

When the MBs and M37s were sold off, they were mostly worn and rusted out by people who used them. Glad some were saved as original. The same will be true for most CUCVs.

I actually think CUCVs are very cool, and to me they look best original.

 

[scottladdy]

I am preparing to install oil pressure and temperature gauges in my M1028 because I don't want a malfunctioning idiot light to lead to the destruction of my 12,800 original mile engine. It has nothing to do with desire, ego, or testosterone. It just makes sense.

Could not agree more. If your CUCV is an investment to you, you will want to ensure everything is running as it is supposed to. The simplicity of these trucks is part of their appeal. But, I'd rather have a gauge tell me something is awry in enough time to avoid major potential damage.

This site has been invaluable to me during my rebuild. There is no way that I could have achieved my intended result without the comments and assistance of other SS members. Anytime I see a new thread (like this one), I always try to post a comment IF I BELIEVE I CAN HELP THE OP.

+1

The bottom line is, we all are fortunate to live in a country where we are free to do whatever we want to do, and think however we want to think

+1

The trouble seems to start when one person or a group of people try to change the thinking of another person or group.

I would amend this to say when one group tries to force their opinion on others. It is, IMO, OK for people to engage in honest, respectful debate. I contend that the synergies from such dialogues led to the founding of this great nation.

Sharecropper, thank you for such a thoughtful post.
bshupe, thank you for starting what should be a very delightful thread.

Now, as for how I am restoring my own vehicles:
My philosophy is to restore the trucks to very good used condition. As these trucks were often modified by the troops they were built to serve, and also by the units that used them, upgrades like lighting, stereo radios, a/c, consoles, and yes, even cup holders are OK by me. If the truck is useful to it's current owner, the chances of it going to the scrap yard are greatly diminished.

However, I believe any modifications should be kept in line with the military theme of these vehicles. These trucks served our country, as did the men and women that drove them. I feel a debt to these brave men and women that a modicum of respect in the way I treat them is in line, and the least I can do to honor these people.

I am a Boy Scout Scoutmaster, and relish the day when my M1008A1 is restored to the point that she can participate in our local Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Veterans Day parades, with her troop seats filled with energetic young men, appropriately carrying the colors that represent so much.

This is my philosophy. I will not feel offended if you disagree. Nor will I be disrespectful of your choices.

 

[scottladdy]

Keeping the CUCV KISS is admirable, yet there are some things I must have. Anyone with a 1010 or 1031 needs a rear view camera. They aren't expensive or complex, there is even a wireless one although that might need a battery. On the 1031, you could hide a good battery pack in the rear clearance lamp housing and if using rechargable batteries, they could recharge off the clearance lights. Still, it is simple to run the wiring for a camera alongside the wiring for the lights.

Now, comfort is also a must which is why I am installing an air conditioner. But I am keeping the stock alternators by making it 28 volt powered. I figure the truck needs 30 amperes off the front battery, leaving another 30 amps at 12 volts on the back for the blower and 70 amps of 28 volts to power the compressor. The motor is switched with a heavy-duty solenoid relay, just as if the relay were the clutch. The motor is direct drive through a Lovejoy coupling. I left the pulley on the compressor since it allowed me to spin it to determine the center on the back side, see the target? That is for alignment purposes, I'm well within the allowed alignment. The motor has shaft centers on both ends for alignment.

I disassembled the clutch on the compressor to join the hub to the coupling. It is within 0.003" of center, based on the OD of the L095 coupling half.

The compressor mounts under the truck, on the frame rails under the passenger seat. This puts it in good cool airflow. Condenser is mounted in front of the radiator. Evaporator is a compact under dash unit.

The compressor is a Sanden SD7B100, a small 7 cylinder unit with peak efficiency at about 2000 RPM, the motor is a 3000 RPM at 24 volts. Running it at 28 volts will push the speed up but it will load down to 2000 RPM during maximum AC demand.

Excellent work Keith_J

 

[saddamsnightmare]

October 13th, 2012.

I come down on the side of minimal, reversible modifications, only because my Unimog managed to destroy three M_B mechanical fuel pumps in 3 months due to the darned elthanol the twits in Illinois feel must be in their gasoline. No 1963 Mercedes gas anything was ever designed to run on this stuff...so I had to put a 24 VDC electric pump and pressure regulator on it. BUT I have the last mechanical pump and parts to return her to original as soon as wisdom prevails and we stop making food into fuel... (not political, realistic).
My truck survived 49+ years with good care, it will prbably make at least thirty more (more likely then I will).

For those of you that believe you can and should alter them because you can.... Fifty years from now a whole industry will spring up to restore the stuff we are chopping and altering today...and that goes for bobbed deuces...IMHOP.

I have seen lots of fifties antique rods get reverted back, its gonna happen to the military vehicles too, but the guys that have great unrestored but solid trucks, they are gonna be the big winners..

 

[Keith_J]

All my modifications are simple add-ons. Aside from a few screw holes, they can be returned to issue condition with removal of the add-ons.

 

[Skinny]

Keeping the CUCV KISS is admirable, yet there are some things I must have. Anyone with a 1010 or 1031 needs a rear view camera. They aren't expensive or complex, there is even a wireless one although that might need a battery. On the 1031, you could hide a good battery pack in the rear clearance lamp housing and if using rechargable batteries, they could recharge off the clearance lights. Still, it is simple to run the wiring for a camera alongside the wiring for the lights.

Now, comfort is also a must which is why I am installing an air conditioner. But I am keeping the stock alternators by making it 28 volt powered. I figure the truck needs 30 amperes off the front battery, leaving another 30 amps at 12 volts on the back for the blower and 70 amps of 28 volts to power the compressor. The motor is switched with a heavy-duty solenoid relay, just as if the relay were the clutch. The motor is direct drive through a Lovejoy coupling. I left the pulley on the compressor since it allowed me to spin it to determine the center on the back side, see the target? That is for alignment purposes, I'm well within the allowed alignment. The motor has shaft centers on both ends for alignment.

I disassembled the clutch on the compressor to join the hub to the coupling. It is within 0.003" of center, based on the OD of the L095 coupling half.

The compressor mounts under the truck, on the frame rails under the passenger seat. This puts it in good cool airflow. Condenser is mounted in front of the radiator. Evaporator is a compact under dash unit.

The compressor is a Sanden SD7B100, a small 7 cylinder unit with peak efficiency at about 2000 RPM, the motor is a 3000 RPM at 24 volts. Running it at 28 volts will push the speed up but it will load down to 2000 RPM during maximum AC demand.

This by far has been the best posting on AC to this day!

Hope there is a build thread on this...

As far as the rest goes, I'm not quite sure what to say PC here. A CUCV is by no means anything special or hard to replicate. Having said that, I think chopping one or de-militarizing it should be against the law. GM only made about 4 gazillion other trucks you can do that to.

I do want to add modern luxuries to mine but refuse to cut any major holes or anything that isn't easily reversible because I want to keep it stock"ish". Every old Land Rover I work on has dozens of holes in the body from every mechanic/owner installing something. It rapidly degrades the condition of the vehicle. Keep it simple...stupid

 

[Keith_J]

Pictures of the build

I flubbed that...thought I had more pictures...will update later.

 

[donalloy1]

I am in the train of thought to keep my m1009 as original as possible! KISS is a principal that I strive for everyday of my life.

We should have the latitude to do minimal modifications to our vehicles in the intrest of safety, functionality and comfort without being subjected to persecution.

 

[Crewdawg141]

This is a very interesting thread, I applaud all who have commented already. I am in a similar quagmire of what to do to my M1009. Mechanically my CUCV will remain stock, maybe later in life I will swap the engine to a newer model or add a Banks Turbo to the engine but as a whole she will still be a CUCV. No matter the course that I take with her she will retain all of her glory to include the MIL Spec electrical system.

The interior and exterior is another story, I have 3 colors (4 if you count the fading) of the various trim. I will be R2'ing all pieces to have a black interior and adding a stereo. Deadening the road noise will be addressed either by spray in bed liner or an insulation mat and carpeting or rubber mats.
My great heresy for the exterior is to go from tired flat black wheels to high gloss black (Rustoleum) and to make the grill guard and bumpers the same high gloss black. The CUCV will receive a fresh coat of Camo once I get to that point in life. I think that she will look awesome with these simple changes. It is not my intention to make the M1009 into a K5, and by purist approach all of what I am going to do can be easily undone (without Bondo or welding). However I do not plan on letting my CUCV go (at least not without a fight).

Part of my reasoning for making these changes is to build interest in this truck by my wife. She looks at it as just another toy for me but the desire to spend time with her by taking the CUCV to various events leads me to having to add some creature comforts (maybe A/C will be in the works in the future). Luckily for me thanks to a Breakfast gathering this weekend by local members on here she is actually thinking about a Deuce or an M43. The contagion is spreading !

If I will be harrassed or burned in effigy because I make some alterations to any of my toys to include this or any other CUCV so be it. It is my ride and I will never ask for forgiveness for things that I do to make it a better vehicle in my eyes. Smile and nod or turn the other cheek and accept the fact that we all are just a little different in our approaches to the vehicles that we own.

 

[bshupe]

Since I have been on this site (very green) I dont recall anyone being burned on any issues at all which is refreshing. Thanks to the mods for filtering anyone who has tried to act out that way.

Thanks to all for posting.

 

[Orlovsky]

Well,

Modifications to your vehicle should improve it: lift for larger tires to increase the circumference per rotation to increase your top speed, ground clearance not for the bad ass/cool factor.

gauges that are not part of the cluster are approved by me. I wish I had an RPM gauge as well as others in the above posts.

In the end, its what YOU want out of your vehicle,

Thanks,
Orlovsky