Challenging the State of Louisiana on Humvee Restrictions

[Ripsaw]

.....As everyone in their state should do too. Here is a flyer we made up for car show patrons to get the word out there. Enjoy and pass it on,
nationwide!....The States are not allowed to do this under Federal law. There can be made, no more strict requirement or rule or law, than the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. If there were, then other states' or military vehicles would not be allowed to cross states lines and would hogtie the Military from doing their job, supposedly, protecting us.


The Office of Motor Vehicles for the State of Louisiana is denying highway use titles for Humvee's and claiming the Federal Organization, NHTSA (National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration) rules applies to this issue and is their authority for doing this, under Title 49 of the United States Code. This is the evidence proving that is not true and that the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) & NHTSA requirements do not apply to the Humvee's in question.
This is not my opinion, but the opinion sent to the State of California - Department of Motor Vehicles, in a letter to them outlining the applicability of the Federal Statutes in the United States Code, Title 49 - Chapter 301, from Chief Counsel for the NHTSA, regarding the Humvee, specifically.
Further, under Chapter 301:
§ 30112. Prohibitions on manufacturing, selling, and importing noncomplying motor vehicles and equipment
(b) Nonapplication.[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]--This section does not apply to-- [/FONT][/FONT]
(9) [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]a motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old. [/FONT][/FONT]

My Humvee is a 1990 model and is over 25 years old. There are no facts presented, that would prove that the Statutes apply to me or my vehicle.
The OMV & Senator Hewitt's office has been notified of this and request to send my title immediately has been given.
Source link:
https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/CA_HMMV.html
Here are the pertinent and relevant facts:
By way of background, the FMVSSs apply to the manufacture and sale of "new motor vehicles" and motor vehicle equipment (49 U.S.C. �30112). ....emphasis mine.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) does not regulate the operation (i.e., use) of motor vehicles, which is generally under the jurisdiction of the states.
.....there was no FMVSS that applied to the vehicles in question. Having recognized the unique transportation needs of the Armed Forces and the specialized functions of many military vehicles, the agency established a limited exemption for military vehicles. Under 49 CFR � 571.7(c), vehicles manufactured pursuant to military specifications and sold directly to the US military are exempted from the requirement to comply with the FMVSS.
Yet, in this document it reads, the HMV's were built to meet or exceed all FMVSS requirements anyway..... Meaning,
they could not have had the NHTSA tags attached to the chassis, that the State of Louisiana is requiring them to have, because they were exempt.
....and, the Federal document previously attached above, states that there cannot be made by the State, a more stringent requirement.
Source links: https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/gm/88/nht88-1.29.html https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/#SN102


We are illegally being ordered to prove a negative. We can not produce a tag that never existed.
The OMV is the organization claiming that the Humvee's are off road only use, in the State of Louisiana.
If they dream up any other requirements to stop the titles from being issued with expediency, they will be in violation of Federal Law,
and we will still need to see facts and evidence to prove those claims as well, as the OMV and State bear the burden of proving their claims.

 

[porkysplace]

The states have the right to regulate what they allow to be registered and operated on their roads.

 

[Ripsaw]

NEGATIVE . They do not. Did you read the law I linked. No more stringent requirement may be made....It goes under the Supremacy Clause. The Federal government cannot do it's job of uniting the states, and protecting them, if their hands are tied in matters like these.

 

[porkysplace]

NEGATIVE . They do not. Did you read the law I linked. No more stringent requirement may be made....It goes under the Supremacy Clause. The Federal government cannot do it's job of uniting the states, and protecting them, if their hands are tied in matters like these.

You might want to read the half dozen other threads on other states refusing to register HMMWV's . Actually search and find the thread on when Wisconsin banned all MV's that happened long before the HMMWV's that were sold as "OFF ROAD ONLY'

This is a quote of a post by member undysworld in the thread about Idaho not titling or registering FMV.

[ A title only shows ownership, and it can be branded with restrictions.

A while ago, I called GP and asked about the titles they offered, in regard to a certain smallish U.S. vehicle (which shall remain unnamed). I was told that titles could be obtained for some vehicles which were only sold for off-road for the purpose of showing ownership, but the title was branded Off-Road Only, or some such thing. Whether Idaho would then issue a clear unrestricted title is anyone's guess, but based on this letter, my guess is "no".

Rather than trying to cheat the system, and maybe getting caught, you guys in Idaho should try to get this corrected legislatively. It's not impossible, and it's how this country is supposed​ to work. ]

 

[donquijote]

I had no issues with our humvees in Louisiana...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[BLK HMMWV]

Ripsaw you left out the part of the letter where she said that when establishing the exemption the agency didn't expect the vehicles to be sold to civilians.

 

[porkysplace]

Ripsaw you left out the part of the letter where she said that when establishing the exemption the agency didn't expect the vehicles to be sold to civilians.

Details, Details.
I wonder why he wants to title in Louisana anyway , since he lists his location
as Mississippi.

 

[BLK HMMWV]

Another example of not letting the sleeping dog lie or somebody smacking the dam hornets nest.
I don't care what anyone says but to me
All of the recent BS related to FMV's is directly related to IP/ GP / GL selling HMMWV's again.
It's starting to domino down the line.
It's only a matter of time till this thread gets locked .

 

[BLK HMMWV]

That is curious. How can you even get a title for a vehicle that has never actually been in the state the title is issued from.

 

[98G]

The NHTSA will not be your ally in this.

Although you're correct in your assertion that the FMVSS is the limit as far as what states my set as the requirements, the states may apply the FMVSS to any vehicles as a condition of registration. The opinion of the NHTSA legal counsel is that the state is not obligated to recognize the military exemption when vehicles are subsequently sold to civilians.

My source for this is a letter from NHTSA legal counsel to CA DMV. I don't like it. I won't defend it. But if you're looking for help from NHTSA it won't be forthcoming.

edit to add applicable quotes -

" While NHTSA has no authority over the disposal of surplus military vehicles, we have advised the Department of Defense against the sale of surplus military vehicles, including the Humvee, to civilians.[1] "

"Since there was no FMVSS applicable to the vehicles in question, there is no conflict between the FMVSSs and a California requirement that the vehicles meet safety standards. As such, a state would not be preempted from requiring surplus military vehicles sold to civilians to meet FMVSS requirements as a condition of state registration."

 

[98G]

That is curious. How can you even get a title for a vehicle that has never actually been in the state the title is issued from.

Many states don't have a residency requirement for titling and registration.

 

[Ripsaw]

You might want to read the half dozen other threads on other states refusing to register HMMWV's . Actually search and find the thread on when Wisconsin banned all MV's that happened long before the HMMWV's that were sold as "OFF ROAD ONLY'

This is a quote of a post by member undysworld in the thread about Idaho not titling or registering FMV.

[ A title only shows ownership, and it can be branded with restrictions.

A while ago, I called GP and asked about the titles they offered, in regard to a certain smallish U.S. vehicle (which shall remain unnamed). I was told that titles could be obtained for some vehicles which were only sold for off-road for the purpose of showing ownership, but the title was branded Off-Road Only, or some such thing. Whether Idaho would then issue a clear unrestricted title is anyone's guess, but based on this letter, my guess is "no".

Rather than trying to cheat the system, and maybe getting caught, you guys in Idaho should try to get this corrected legislatively. It's not impossible, and it's how this country is supposed​ to work. ]

I've read every single thread on this subject, not just here, but everywhere I could find. I do my research.

I had no issues with our humvees in Louisiana...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

You soon will, even if given a highway use title previously. The OMV told me Friday, that they are currently drafting letters to all Humvee owners in the State, disallowing the highway use.

Ripsaw you left out the part of the letter where she said that when establishing the exemption the agency didn't expect the vehicles to be sold to civilians.

I didn't leave anything out. I posted the source links. I wrote that these are the pertinent and relevant facts....it's not relevant. I assumed everyone would do their own research, and not believe me. Don't believe me, I don't expect anyone to anyway.

Details, Details.
I wonder why he wants to title in Louisana anyway , since he lists his location
as Mississippi.

Are you just trying to make me look bad or what? If you bothered reading the first paragraph, and understanding it, I wrote "We" came up with the flyers....there are many people involved, including non-residents of LA.

Another example of not letting the sleeping dog lie or somebody smacking the dam hornets nest.
I don't care what anyone says but to me
All of the recent BS related to FMV's is directly related to IP/ GP / GL selling HMMWV's again.
It's starting to domino down the line.
It's only a matter of time till this thread gets locked .

Locked for what? Telling the truth? Again, these are not my opinions, but the chief counsel for the organization that all the states are saying they based their determinations on for state statutes regarding humvee restrictions. I am not making interpretations on the law, they are.

That is curious. How can you even get a title for a vehicle that has never actually been in the state the title is issued from.

Simple, just make application. No HMV's have ever had a title before. When sold to individuals, under the revised statutes of LA. Chapter 32, they don't even require one, and the original vin number of sorts, used by the military, may be used as title when painted on the hood or door.

The NHTSA will not be your ally in this.

Although you're correct in your assertion that the FMVSS is the limit as far as what states my set as the requirements, the states may apply the FMVSS to any vehicles as a condition of registration. The opinion of the NHTSA legal counsel is that the state is not obligated to recognize the military exemption when vehicles are subsequently sold to civilians.

My source for this is a letter from NHTSA legal counsel to CA DMV. I don't like it. I won't defend it. But if you're looking for help from NHTSA it won't be forthcoming.

edit to add applicable quotes -

" While NHTSA has no authority over the disposal of surplus military vehicles, we have advised the Department of Defense against the sale of surplus military vehicles, including the Humvee, to civilians.[1] "

"Since there was no FMVSS applicable to the vehicles in question, there is no conflict between the FMVSSs and a California requirement that the vehicles meet safety standards. As such, a state would not be preempted from requiring surplus military vehicles sold to civilians to meet FMVSS requirements as a condition of state registration."

I'm not looking for or depending on the NHTSA for help. We aren't asking the state to recognize or ignore the exemption, not relevant to the issue. I linked the proof that they were built to "meet or exceed" FMVSS requirements already. It's a moot point. Again, the state, any state, cannot make a more strict requirement than FMVSS. They were built to meet it anyway. Try to keep up guys.

The states are making a claim, that the fmvss or nhtsa applies to these vehicles. It does not, as I have proven already. Even if the states require them to comply, they already do. The one making the claim, bears the burden of proof. It's a fundamental and simple concept, and black letter law that is known to all courts as procedure.

The only person in a courtroom that is considered an expert on the application and interpretation of the law, is the judge. No judge I know, could possibly read these facts, and come to any other conclusion than, the states have no leg to stand on, with their futile position on this matter and issues. If he did find otherwise, he would be in violation of the Federal Statute. He is not going to do that. He might lose his seat on the cushioned bench.

 

[tage]

Why red? You know some people are color blind to red.
Also gives me a headache to attempt to read that section....

 

[Jericho]

Interesting statement on Loose e anna , I lived there from 1986 to 90 Car registrations were easy, no one cared. Inspection compared to NH was a joke, paid my $6.00 and he did it from his desk, remember him saying, "For six bucks I don't git outta my chair " Logging trucks didn't require doors windshields or brakes for that matter , Times must have changed , Title it in Vermont, Write DMV Montpelier VT

 

[sue]

I’m just glad a lot of these cry baby’s were not around
when the thirteen colonies were getting a little
upset with the king across the pond, or we might still
have the Union Jack flying over this great Nation.
this the United States of America, land of the FREE.
keep up the fight. Think your hmmwv is unsafe?
Then don’t drive it on the road. But don’t come down
the people who want to license them for the road.
Why not have a choice instead of being told what to do?

 

[frank8003]

Most of the time that has now passed, people just do not understand laws and
rules as interpreted by lawyers.

This country is run by lawyers and mostly always HAS been.
DO your research.
How many of the 535 are lawyers, research.

Just everybody get all their money together and get THAT lawyer and win.

If a matter is important to the one, then all must just go get a lawyer,
This entire gobernment is lawyers so one must contend with that.

Like Grandpop said... "You pays Yo Money and yous hope for the best" 1938

Did all the posters miss that little point of conversation about LAW run by the
lawyers whom all aspire to be judges !?

 

[Ripsaw]

Sorry for the red color tage, it was for emphasis and highlighted the points better as flyers at the show. Only lit up the most important or relevant parts.

I couldn't agree with you more Frank ! I am not a lawyer and can't stand any of them that I ever met.

Nothing personal to any lawyers here, because I have disdain for all peoples equally.... heh heh....

 

[porkysplace]

I’m just glad a lot of these cry baby’s were not around
when the thirteen colonies were getting a little
upset with the king across the pond, or we might still
have the Union Jack flying over this great Nation.
this the United States of America, land of the FREE.
keep up the fight. Think your hmmwv is unsafe?
Then don’t drive it on the road. But don’t come down
the people who want to license them for the road.
Why not have a choice instead of being told what to do?

You mean the ones that bought them with the understanding and signed a agreement that
they were sold as "OFF ROAD ONLY" and now want to drive on the highways ?

 

[Al Capone]

The statement on auction page said these vehicles are offered for Off road use only . Offered is key word . And at time I bought mine la was inspecting them by state troopers and allowing them on road . They changed they mind a month later . So yeah I’m pissed . I followed their statement that they won’t take any Offroad stamped papers . Got just a bill of sale and did antique title process in our state which required nothing but bill of sale . And they won’t send title . Ripsaw is helping me and few other friends . And hopefully every other owner in La. don’t hate participate !

 

[sue]

I just picked one up in January and the title nor
the bill of sale or the SF-97 said “off road only”.
And from what I
I have heard third party by others on this
forum, the “off road only” is put on there by
the auction company?
So I don’t get that 5 tons, hemmetts, 2&1/2 tons etc.
dont have the “off road only”. My M35 we bought
two years ago did not have that on the title, bill of
sale or SF-97?