Clarkston Solar project.

[FireFighterHill]

I thought there was now regulation in some states that they had to buy back electricity at the same rate they sell it.

 

[Rambling Wreck]

I thought there was now regulation in some states that they had to buy back electricity at the same rate they sell it.

I am not aware of any regulations like that but I left the world of power consulting nearly two years ago so I am not as well versed and up to date as I used to be.

 

[tuckered]

All monopolies can make a profit, as long as they are monopoly.

 

[Stalwart]

I'm not suggesting that the OP is making anything up but I think there was a whole lot of money from the state and "Uncle Sugar" in the books. Solar isn't going to make that kind of ROI, the cost per watt is just too high.

 

[islandguydon]

I thought there was now regulation in some states that they had to buy back electricity at the same rate they sell it.

The Detroit Edison company has a program called "Currents" under Michigan law the utility must buy every KWh produced at the current Commercial rate charged to the commercial customer.

When I did the math I used an average of 24v. The solar panel is rated at normal operating 30.2vdc so I underrated the output. Even at the 24vdc rate, the output to the grid is well over 36,000 amps constant for 5-6 hours on a sunny day. + or - 18% for an hour for the sun rising and setting. I hope I have explained this so you understand the operation.

 

[islandguydon]

I'm not suggesting that the OP is making anything up but I think there was a whole lot of money from the state and "Uncle Sugar" in the books. Solar isn't going to make that kind of ROI, the cost per watt is just too high.

We had a Governor, Jennifer Grandholm. Before she left office she had a law passed that by 2015 the whole State of Michigan would consume 10% of its electricity through renewables. The State has incentives just for this purpose. I am not the lawyer just an installer on this site and have asked many questions.


I have a private system myself, 1 system is a Xantrex/trace 6048, This is a 6000 watt @ 48vdc, it's a hybrid inverter/charger which is a grid feeder, its the single inverter in the picture, not the double stacked one. Input is 48vdc / output is 240vac. Which powers the Home meter. When the 560ah Forklift battery is full and I am producing more power than I use the inverter sells the power back to the grid.


The second system is a double stacked xantrex/trace 5548, 5,500 watts @ 48vdc This system is a 11,000 watt inverter charger system. The system produces 240vac pure sine wave power to feed the geothermal meter.

I only have 2 meters so these two systems have me covered. The battery's used are GNB PDQ 23 telecom back up. They weight 230 lbs each, they are 2.35vdc each. They are copper barred in series to 48 vdc.


The two pictures of the generators are Alpha Gen telecom remote power generators. These are made by Kohler specifically designed for telecom industry to supply direct power to the phone lines or to charge the battery's and run the load. Did you ever wonder why when the power is out your land line is still operating. This system is why you have power to run your phone at home or business.


When the batter bank runs down to 46vdc constant the Alpha Gen will automatically start, run the load and charge the battery bank. When the bank is fully recharged to 56.2 constant while still running the load, the system will shut off. I have been off grid for 2-3 week at a time to exercise the system and tweak it, and have only gone down to 48.2 vdc.

Since both these systems are located at a residential address Detroit Edison buys back the power at the current residential rate.

To answer the question from Stalwart;1228976, who thinks the cost of watts are to hi to purchase. You may be correct for ebay but in todays economy if you have a few million to spend the cost per watt drops in half. Buying panels in bulk sure has it's advantages. I use the same panels at my home and are extremely happy with the output.

 

[Rambling Wreck]

The Detroit Edison company has a program called "Currents" under Michigan law the utility must buy every KWh produced at the current Commercial rate charged to the commercial customer.

When I did the math I used an average of 24v. The solar panel is rated at normal operating 30.2vdc so I underrated the output. Even at the 24vdc rate, the output to the grid is well over 36,000 amps constant for 5-6 hours on a sunny day. + or - 18% for an hour for the sun rising and setting. I hope I have explained this so you understand the operation.

I was unaware of that program; of course I don't live in Michigan. That sounds awesome though. At this point in time I guess that for solar to be financially viable you need to have a program like that in your area and you need to have deep enough pockets to buy the panels/equipment in bulk.

Don, SWEET! setup you have.

 

[porkysplace]

I really question the ability of this system to pay for itself in 2 years . The local city government here is installing a much smaller system and at 22.9 cents per kilowatt hour consumers engery has agreed to pay ( This is 2.5 times what the city currently pays per kilowatt hour ) it is going to take 30 to 50 years to pay back the original costs . This system uses a state of the art tilting system by Nexteer that turns the panels to follow the sun to increase efficiency between 30 and 50 percent . The design of the system here has both Hemlock Semiconductor Corp. ( the worlds largest silicon producer and Nexteer involved in the design . There are approximatily 4000 sq.ft. of panel and they will only generate $6,150 a year in revenue . This system is being built 60 to 70 miles north of the clarkson project. I can't wait to see some actual numbers on what the system in Clarkston actually produces once online ,but with the limited sun in michigan it sounds like a 2 year pay-off is not likely .

 

[islandguydon]

Thanks, I wanted to make the Island self sufficient for wtshtf. I installed this system 3 years ago and have been happy with the results.

Have a good one..!

 

[islandguydon]

I really question the ability of this system to pay for itself in 2 years . The local city government here is installing a much smaller system and at 22.9 cents per kilowatt hour consumers engery has agreed to pay ( This is 2.5 times what the city currently pays per kilowatt hour ) it is going to take 30 to 50 years to pay back the original costs . This system uses a state of the art tilting system by Nexteer that turns the panels to follow the sun to increase efficiency between 30 and 50 percent . The design of the system here has both Hemlock Semiconductor Corp. ( the worlds largest silicon producer and Nexteer involved in the design . There are approximately 4000 sq.ft. of panel and they will only generate $6,150 a year in revenue . This system is being built 60 to 70 miles north of the clarkson project. I can't wait to see some actual numbers on what the system in Clarkston actually produces once online ,but with the limited sun in Michigan it sounds like a 2 year pay-off is not likely .

I guess we can agree to disagree. The system I have been working on has 4,200+ panels, how many panels are you working with. This is not my first rodeo, but its the biggest one yet. There are a series of 6 net meters, I will keep track of the production with pictures to follow through. I came up with the 19 months by doing the math. I even discounted winters cloud cover.

If I am wrong and it takes an extra 6 months to a year then I was wrong, but its still a good green investment for years to come and some good intel to share.

Have a nice day..!

 

[porkysplace]

I guess we can agree to disagree. The system I have been working on has 4,200+ panels, how many panels are you working with. This is not my first rodeo, but its the biggest one yet. There are a series of 6 net meters, I will keep track of the production with pictures to follow through. I came up with the 19 months by doing the math. I even discounted winters cloud cover.

If I am wrong and it takes an extra 6 months to a year then I was wrong, but its still a good green investment for years to come and some good intel to share.

Have a nice day..!

96 4-foot by 10-foot solar panels.





Solar savings: Saginaw City Council approves plan to install

 

[islandguydon]

Hey PP, your system has 96 panels say its 100 so by your math they are going to make $6,150 per month x 12 months = $73,800.00 per year for the installation of 100 panels in Saginaw.

Now take $73,800.00 X 42 and you get $3,099,600 per year. Don't discount the inphase micro inverters with a 20%+ increase and keep in mind I rated each panel at 24 volts instead of the full load capacity of 30.2vdc . Either way you look at it, It's a win win for everyone.

The trick is buying the panels in bulk and having the money to do so. We even got the suppler to eat half of the freight. Whats expensive is the security for the 8 month project, 24/7 manned and armed..I will do the access controls and will be installing the Security Gate System with cameras in a month or so when the project is complete.

 

[FireFighterHill]

I would love to build and install my own 15-20kw motorized sun tracking Solar array with battery banks and also supplement it with wind generation. Id probably do it in phases, start out with 5kw and slowly add on as funds allow. Geothermal heating and cooling is also on my list, as well as Solar hot water heater.

Islandguy, what manufacturer do you think makes the best panels for the money? And the best controllers, inverters, batteries, etc?

 

[porkysplace]

Hey PP, your system has 96 panels say its 100 so by your math they are going to make $6,150 per month x 12 months = $73,800.00 per year for the installation of 100 panels in Saginaw.

Now take $73,800.00 X 42 and you get $3,099,600 per year. Don't discount the inphase micro inverters with a 20%+ increase and keep in mind I rated each panel at 24 volts instead of the full load capacity of 30.2vdc . Either way you look at it, It's a win win for everyone.

The trick is buying the panels in bulk and having the money to do so. We even got the suppler to eat half of the freight. Whats expensive is the security for the 8 month project, 24/7 manned and armed..I will do the access controls and will be installing the Security Gate System with cameras in a month or so when the project is complete.

They are only going to make $6,150 per year not month on the complete set-up and that is get getting 2.5 times the rate they currently pay per kilowatt hour .the purple line in post # 31 explains the whole set-up .

 

[Marcel]

The article states "Based on the Consumers Energy agreement to pay 22.9 cents per kilowatt hour, about 2.5 times what the city pays for its own energy, the solar plant should raise about $6,150 each year, which can then be used to pay off the Saginaw Future loan over a 15-year period."

 

[Marcel]

I'm not suggesting that the OP is making anything up but I think there was a whole lot of money from the state and "Uncle Sugar" in the books. Solar isn't going to make that kind of ROI, the cost per watt is just too high.

Remember that traditional fossil fuels are artificially low because of "Uncle Sugar" as well.

 

[islandguydon]

Oh gotcha, I thought it was per month. My bad. I will check the stats over the first 6 months and post the results.

Just a thought at 36,326.4 constant amps being dumped back into the grid equates to 101,376 watts per hour for 5 hours a day @ 22 cents a Kwh, I come up with $22,302.72

That seems way to high, what am I doing wrong with my math....?

 

[Rambling Wreck]

Oh gotcha, I thought it was per month. My bad. I will check the stats over the first 6 months and post the results.

Just a thought at 36,326.4 constant amps being dumped back into the grid equates to 101,376 watts per hour for 5 hours a day @ 22 cents a Kwh, I come up with $22,302.72

That seems way to high, what am I doing wrong with my math....?

Yeah I thought those results seemed a little off. So what is the actual ROI, 19 years? If so, that seams more reasonable. Actually that still shorter ROI than solar usually is. Must be because of the Michigan incentives/regulations and buying the equipment in bulk.

 

[islandguydon]

FireFighterHill

Thats depends on your power usage, is this system for your home..? Will 6000 watts @ 12,000 spike be enough to carry the load..? If so I would get a 48v Gel Cell forklift battery for storage, 6048 Xantrex/trace now bought by Schneider Electrical for the inverter charger, and Solar World SW 240w Poly for the solar panels. If you buy a pallet 30 of these panels, thats 7,200 watts it might set you back roughly $4,600. The installation of any one of these components are easy. I will attach the owners manual for you to read.

The charge controller xantrex has is the one to get. This unit has a built in diversion load, so when the battery is full and your still producing power is sends the extra to a 48v heating element to heat your hot water. Only 1 time the relief valve went off from the ater being to hot in the tank. I need a bigger tank.

BTW, the gel cell weights 2460 lbs. I had to use a loader to place it on the barge and winches and ramps 4 men and 3 hours time to move it 130' to its final resting place. My neighbor owns a forklift sales and service shop, I lucked out and got a deal on a new one that was ordered then canceled. He gets deals all the time. If your serious I would ask him for you.

 

[FireFighterHill]

So roughly how much would you say a 5kw system would set me back for all the components?