Clearing up NO STARTS

[edpdx]

If you have been following any of my threads lately then you may remember I recently replaced the Ebay (chinese) starter with a Wilson Starter. That went well and everything was jake. I felt so good about the prospects of not having to replace one in the field anytime soon , that I went out and bought a Wilson Alt for the Passenger side that recently began acting up. That went well... until last night.

I drove the Blazer around for errands in the morning, when I went out for more errands. CLICK- no start. I retested with the volt meter. Got Step 4 (below inset) " Hold key in “START” position. Check for voltage at purple lead on
starter solenoid.
If there is voltage, replace starter. .AArggghhh

What is happening. If this test is accurate, and I have only started the truck half a dozen times since the starter was installed- then it seems that something is cooking my Starter Solenoids. I looked at the TMs but it is discussing the Direct Drive starter, not my new Gear Reduc model. I am sure that the solenoids are close; but they are not the problem... only the symptom.

What causes the the solenoids in new starter to fail?
There it is- that is the question that will, I believe, answer the mystery of so many NO START question here. Ideas please...

42. ENGINE WILL NOT CRANK (NO AUDIBLE CLICK FROM STARTER SOLENOID)

Step 1. Check 20 amp ignition fuse. (See paragraph 4-12)
Replace fuse if burned out.

Step 2. Perform Electrical Troubleshooting malfunction #5.
2-74
TM 9-2320-289-20

Table 2-4. Electrical Troubleshooting (Con’t)
MALFUNCTION
TEST OR INSPECTION
CORRECTIVE ACTION

Step 3. Inspect lead connections at starter solenoid for corrosion and damage. Check
starter mounting bolts for looseness.
Clean any corroded connections. Tighten any loose connections. Replace any
damaged connections. Tighten starter mounting bolts to 33 Ib.-ft. (45 N•m).

Step 4. Have assistant hold key in “START” position. Check for voltage at purple lead on
starter solenoid.
If there is voltage, replace starter. (See paragraph 4-5)
If there is no voltage, perform step 5.

Step 5. Remove starter relay. (See paragraph 4-13) Turn key to “START” position. Check for
voltage at purple/white lead terminal on starter relay connector.
If there is voltage, perform step 6.
If there is no voltage, trace circuit. (See wiring diagram F-1 or F-2)

Step 6. Check for voltage at purple/white lead terminal on starter relay connector.
If there is voltage, replace relay.
If there is no voltage, trace circuit, (See wiring diagram F-1 or F-2)

Step 7. Check for voltage at red lead terminal or starter relay connector.
If there is voltage, replace relay.
If there is no voltage, trace circuit. (See wiring diagram F-1 or F-2)

 

[doghead]

It makes it much harder to follow your issues, when you post a new thread so often.

 

[edpdx]

Doghead, I am not trying to clutter the boards, I just didn't want to create a saga. IT seemed to be all fixed, so I thought a NEW THREAD for this continuous burned-up solenoid.

If you want to move this to the tail-end on another thread of mine, I am OK with that- Really, I am not trying to make extra work for you.

 

[edpdx]

By the way I am getting 24 volts to the starter solenoid when I turn the key to START. According to Step 4 in the troubleshooting section:

Have assistant hold key in “START” position. Check for voltage at purple lead on
starter solenoid.
If there is voltage, replace starter. (See paragraph 4-5)
If there is no voltage, perform step 5.

I should replace the starter if I get voltage? Huh? Why?

 

[rickf]

Check your entire ground return path. Starter to block, block to battery. Any one of those connections with excess resistance can cause low cranking voltage which will heat up the solenoids. Same with the power connections but I am guessing you already checked them. These checks need to be done under load since they most likely will not show up with an ohms test. Do a loaded voltage drop test between the hot terminal to the starter terminal after the solenoid and also do the same test between the starter case and the negative battery terminal.

Rick

 

[edpdx]

rickf: ... you may be onto something here with this grounding business. I have been looking at the diagram below- on loan from Warthog. The grounding strap and the purple w/white wire are the common element- or at least one common element. It may be that the strap is no longer grounding as it should; leaving the engine and starter ungrounded from the chassis. I think this strap and the wire that runs to the second-from-the-bottom wire on the fuel filter assembly are attached to the block or intake at the rear passenger side near the firewall. It is too dark now; but I'll be having a close look in the morning. If this is the culprit, would a "no ground" situation cause the starter solenoid to fry and require replacement?

I have added an extra ground to the starter; but am now unsure if I am grounding it correctly. The bolt where the purple wire attaches to the starter solenoid is the correct ground for this gear reduction starter per the tech at the starter repair shop. Anyone confirm this?

 

[rickf]

I don't have much tiome to look over the diagram but the purple wire should be then activation wire for the starter, starter should ground to the block through the mounting and you shopuld have a large ground wire from the engine block to the battery somewhere. I would have to look at mine but on the civvie trucks it goes to the right alternator bracket. I would have to look at mine or a complete diagram to refresh my memory, I know there is a ground buss but I am not sure if you can ground from the block directly to the battery because of the split system. To answer your other question, if the ground is bad then the voltage will drop and the amperage will rise under load, hence, burnt contacts.

Rick

 

[edpdx]

I know there is a ground buss but I am not sure if you can ground from the block directly to the battery because of the split system. To answer your other question, if the ground is bad then the voltage will drop and the amperage will rise under load, hence, burnt contacts.

Can these contacts (I assume you are talking about the ones on the starter solenoid) be cleaned externally, or are they shot and need to be replaced, as the Gear Reduction starters have sealed solenoids?

 

[Warthog]

The direct drive solenoids can be disasembled.

But the gear reductions are sealed. Not saying it cant be done but I have broken two bad solenoids attempting it.

 

[edpdx]

warthog, OK, I have been looking over the first solenoid that came on the Chinese Gear Reduction starter. I have not figured out how to open it yet- I was thinking about a dremel and a cutting wheel. Just cutting through the metal part beyond the crimps. I still don't know the answer to my question above- do the contacts that burn/arc on the starter solenoid get screwed up only on the INSIDE of the solenoid housing?

 

[doghead]

Yes, the contacts are inside. They typically arc, causing pitting and actual removal of material on the contact mating surfaces, rendering them useless.

Poor quality, substandard contact material, over loading the contact(for it's design) or improper set up(installation) are possible reasons for the contacts to go bad.

Have you ever checked your Bendix throw or gear mesh clearance, when changing your starters?

 

[doghead]

Have you measured the starter load while cranking?

Have you measured voltage while cranking?

Have you had both of your batteries load tested recently?

Have you removed and measured the resistance in each of your battery cables?

How many starters have you gone through, so far? What brand?

 

[edpdx]

Have you measured the starter load while cranking?
I have not learned how to do load testing yet. Do I need a special apparatus?


Have you measured voltage while cranking?

A: At the starter solenoid purple wire I get 24v when I turn the key to START.

Have you had both of your batteries load tested recently?
A: No, I don't have a load tester. they show 12.4-5. When I test the POS on the Rear Battery, grounding to frame, I get 24v.

Have you removed and measured the resistance in each of your battery cables?
A: I'll read up on this and do itin the morning, I have not performed this test before.

How many starters have you gone through, so far? What brand?
A:Replaced the orig DD with A Caltric GR from Ebay. The first Solenoid blew and the replacement lasted 7 months. I put a NEW Wilson mt28 GR on it last week. Failed after around 10 starts. *** Note: I did find that the grounding strap between the block -near the passenger rear intake was not continuous to the firewall. It has been cleaned and replaced; but I still get the Click when I try starting it.

I know it is not poor quality components causing all these NO STARTS and hosed starters and solenoids. There is a fault, a weak link, somewhere in this circuit's harness that is causing us these reoccurring problems. I sure wanna nail this down!

 

[CROM]

I've had the same thing happen recently after replacing my starter....just a click. Turned out the cable from my solenoid had just enough corrosion/gunk on it to cause the problem (on the solenoid connecting side). After a good scrub I'm good to go. Maybe try checking that wire out thoroughly. Any corrosion at any point in the line could cause you trouble.

 

[doghead]

To load test a battery, you have a couple choices. You can buy a tool like this( Actron®) or go to your local auto parts store and ask to have your batteries load tested(free).

 

[doghead]

I also suggest you clean all the connections on your cables when you measure them for resistance(ohms).

 

[rickf]

I have seen cables show low resistance on an ohms test but still have high resistance under load, that is why I always do a voltage drop test. Put the negative wire from the meter on one end of the wire on the terminal of the starter and the positive wire from the meter on the other end at the terminal or directly on the battery post. Crank engine and see if you get a reading. Anything over .5 volt on a high amperage circuit tells you that you have a bad connection or even a bad wire itself. The lower the reading the better.

Rick

 

[edpdx]

Just unpacked my load tester. As I was doing so I spotted the Chinese starter in my garage. Having made a few statements about suspecting the wiring circuits rather than failing parts, so I tested the starter on the bench. It worked?!?! So I ran extensions to the starter using the purple starter solenoid lead cut off just in front (engine side) of the firewall, and a jumper from the 24Volt bus. Turned the key and it worked again. So... I thought the problem was the wire from where I cut it in front of the firewall to the starter. I pulled this wire and found that it had worked itself between the starter bracket and the chassis, rubbed itself bare and had been giving me a non-grounded connection up until if built enough carbon up to stop delivering. Holy smokes!! Days later and it is just a blind snagged wire.

You may not hear from me... I am going hunting!

Thanks to all of you for hanging in there with me on ideas and support.. A special tip of the hat to doghead for the thread headaches I have given him during all this.

 

[doghead]

Great news, good luck in the woods.

 

[Warthog]

Glad you figured it out.

You asked about what can go wrong with a solenoid, check out Barrmans thread. Page two

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/75659-runaway-starter-but-different-what-wires-not-pull-2.html