Cold start Ether kit vs Intake heater

[saddamsnightmare]

July 5th, 2015.


Generally, I only had the flame heater fail once, and replaced it with a new unit, ended the cold weather starting issues for the engine, and when I replaced the starter motor due to a worn out solenoid, ended the cold weather starting issues pretty much permanently.
As regards large diesel engines, pretty much no locomotive engine built in the US today or in the last 50 years uses ether for cold starts, as they universally can't stand going much below 50*F and using crank starting with the batteries on board. If below 45*F and not running, we either drain all the coolant (no antifreeze) or place the unit on engine block heaters with circulatory pumps to protect the radiators.

Ditto for marine engines using the GM or older ALCO locomotive prime movers. Plus the CID per cylinder runs at about 567, 645 and 710 inches working displacement per cylinder, so you would need a lot of ether to start one. Most 567 to 710 crankcases take about 250 to 300 gallons of oil on changes, and the cooling systems also run about 200-300 gallons plus.

The German Deutz engines, even the older ones, are not as dependent on starting aids for cold weather starts, and the genset referred to earlier would, when new, start at -20 to -30F just on batteries, with no pan heater or ether (air-cooled diesel, one of the more efficient and reliable designs). The unit should still do it as it has less the 50 hours on it from new.
American engineers just seem not to know how to design a diesel that can take extreme cold weather starts without starting aids (glow plugs, ether or block heaters).

The Deutz 4 cylinder was modified to lay at a 30* angle from horizontal so it could fit under a railroad passenger car, and it was designed to take down to -30*F starts and operate at +140* F with load, plus operate being pulled in either direction at up to 105-110 MPH (which is what usually kills the water cooled underfloor gensets in railroad service, lack of air flow through the radiator when pulled in reverse at high speeds, and rocks in the radiator in forward motion at high speeds).

I have often wondered why the Army did not design these trucks to take their cooling air in at the side of the hood, as even with the brush guards, there had to be more then a few case of branches taking out a radiator in cross country work. A side drafted radiator would seem to be a better idea, as Deere used it on their older tractor diesel engines.

 

[red]

Our cat motors in some of our spotter trucks at work have an intake heater. Not 100% if it's a flame heater set up like in our deuces, but it functions the same.

It's a grid heater in the intake. Imagine a piece of chicken wire being electrified until it glows red and heats up the surrounding air, that's basically what it does. No flames like what the deuce has. Cummins runs a similar design on their 5.9L engines.

 

[rustystud]

July 5th, 2015.


Generally, I only had the flame heater fail once, and replaced it with a new unit, ended the cold weather starting issues for the engine, and when I replaced the starter motor due to a worn out solenoid, ended the cold weather starting issues pretty much permanently.
As regards large diesel engines, pretty much no locomotive engine built in the US today or in the last 50 years uses ether for cold starts, as they universally can't stand going much below 50*F and using crank starting with the batteries on board. If below 45*F and not running, we either drain all the coolant (no antifreeze) or place the unit on engine block heaters with circulatory pumps to protect the radiators.

Ditto for marine engines using the GM or older ALCO locomotive prime movers. Plus the CID per cylinder runs at about 567, 645 and 710 inches working displacement per cylinder, so you would need a lot of ether to start one. Most 567 to 710 crankcases take about 250 to 300 gallons of oil on changes, and the cooling systems also run about 200-300 gallons plus.

The German Deutz engines, even the older ones, are not as dependent on starting aids for cold weather starts, and the genset referred to earlier would, when new, start at -20 to -30F just on batteries, with no pan heater or ether (air-cooled diesel, one of the more efficient and reliable designs). The unit should still do it as it has less the 50 hours on it from new.
American engineers just seem not to know how to design a diesel that can take extreme cold weather starts without starting aids (glow plugs, ether or block heaters).

The Deutz 4 cylinder was modified to lay at a 30* angle from horizontal so it could fit under a railroad passenger car, and it was designed to take down to -30*F starts and operate at +140* F with load, plus operate being pulled in either direction at up to 105-110 MPH (which is what usually kills the water cooled underfloor gensets in railroad service, lack of air flow through the radiator when pulled in reverse at high speeds, and rocks in the radiator in forward motion at high speeds).

I have often wondered why the Army did not design these trucks to take their cooling air in at the side of the hood, as even with the brush guards, there had to be fore then a few case of branches taking out a radiator in cross country work. A side drafted radiator would seem to be a better idea, as Deere used it on their older tractor diesel engines.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Deutz engine. It is a very dependable engine, at least the ones that I have worked on. Your also right about American design diesels, but if you look at the HP produced for the cubic inches American engines tend to produce more power. Lets face it, Americans want stronger, faster, more power ! in all their engines and vehicles. Europeans tend to more stable, dependable, safe vehicles.

 

[rustystud]

It's a grid heater in the intake. Imagine a piece of chicken wire being electrified until it glows red and heats up the surrounding air, that's basically what it does. No flames like what the deuce has. Cummins runs a similar design on their 5.9L engines.

You can get flames from the CAT manifold heater ! One of our mechanics used ether to try and start a CAT that the grid had failed on. At least he THOUGHT the grid had failed ! Ether can produce a really nice flame !

 

[red]

By design they're not providing a fire in the intake. Like you said spray some ether on that red hot heater and watch your eyebrows haha.

 

[oboyjohn]

What about a fuel fired coolant heater? We have them up here in Canada for our big military trucks (Mercedes Benz, Freightliner,and Steyr) and we have them in our Chevrolet 1.25 ton and G Wagons too. If they are regularly serviced ( and sometimes they are not!) they fire right up and heat the coolant which in turn heats the block and engine oil. Cranking times are drastically reduced, reducing wear on the starter and electrical systems. My 2 cents.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

July 6th, 2015.


The US Army had coolant heaters on the smaller diesel locomotives, using a kerosene burning heater to pre heat the engine block's coolant, but universally those locomotives back then had the same Cat V-12 as a lot of bulldozers, maxing out at about 250 HP per engine for traction, totaling about 450-500 HP per locomotive. Normally, we never shut down the Alco, GM or GE locomotive engines in cold weather, as there are more problems trying to restart them after the coolant has been drained and the oil has gotten cold.
Much easier to let them run. However, the Alaska Railroad runs their EMD's (GM built diesel electrics) at -30,-40 and sometimes -50*F below zero, and pretty much none of us lower 48 railroaders can figure out how they protect the radiators and heat the fuel oil to get it up from the underframe fuel tanks.

 

[rustystud]

What about a fuel fired coolant heater? We have them up here in Canada for our big military trucks (Mercedes Benz, Freightliner,and Steyr) and we have them in our Chevrolet 1.25 ton and G Wagons too. If they are regularly serviced ( and sometimes they are not!) they fire right up and heat the coolant which in turn heats the block and engine oil. Cranking times are drastically reduced, reducing wear on the starter and electrical systems. My 2 cents.

Our buses run the "Wabesto" brand heaters. They have to run them since the engines will not make enough heat otherwise and then will not pass emissions. The problem with any coolant heater is they must be serviced yearly. I have replaced units that had actually melted the stainless steel chamber because the injectors where putting out to much fuel (solenoids failed) and overheated the unit. They also carbon up really fast and must be cleaned out.

 

[oboyjohn]

Our 10 ton wreckers are equipped with Wabesto heaters. They have a stainless steet "hot plate" installed under the batteries where heated coolant passes after it has been heated. The coolant then flows through a series of heat exchangers in the hydraulic tank for the wrecker systems and also in the fuel tank around the fuel sending unit. We are able to start our trucks ( when everything works correctly) down to -45 degrees. The big diesel doesn't like starting when its that cold, but it will. The Russians have an easier system: just build a small fire under the oil pan and let it burn for a while. Heats the oil and engine compartment for easier starting.

 

[Wildchild467]

I thought about that... it would be awesome if it worked!

 

[LowTech]

The ether systems are metered dose directly into the intake. It is a small amount and completely harmless, unlike using a spray can out at the air intake where it has to be sucked all the way in and people get heavy handed with it.

I actually get better results w/ a hand held can. The kit in my truck hits the engine hard, much harder than if I'm using a can.
Maybe I'm just good w/ a can But I have heard that my engine might not be turning over fast enough to use the kit. Have also thought of moving the either injector over on the air cleaner mount. Something to get it farther away and mix it up a bit before it makes it in. Haven't done anything and don't really need it that much, but . . .

 

[rustystud]

I thought about that... it would be awesome if it worked!

What, building a fire under the truck ? LOL ! Actually my father when he was working on the ALCAN highway had to put fuel in several cans and start it on fire to keep the engine, transmission and differentials from freezing. This was common practice for all the drivers to do. He once told me about a driver who forgot to put a fire under the differential. The truck started up and went into gear then when he let out the clutch the differential blew-apart !

 

[recurve]

The only problem with the old flame start system is it must be rigorously maintained ! Parts cleaned and checked on a regular basis ! The glow plugs are another issue altogether. These parts are getting harder and harder to find. Personally I would stay with the either injection. As a heavy truck mechanic I've seen these systems working on trucks for decades now and if used properly don't hurt the engines at all. Plus parts are all over the place. Wherever a truck stop is there you will find replacement parts. Try finding a manifold injector for a Hercules Multifuel at any parts store !

(pardon my ignorance; but there are a few terms being thrown around here - im assuming "flame heater" and "manifold heater" are the same.)

ive been looking through the TM's trying to find how to inspect/fix/maintain the manifold heater. No luck yet, all i see is in TM 9-2320-361-10 it shows how to operate it.
This is my first winter in Idaho, and i can tell you my manifold heater switch works, because without it she wont start. Thats about all i know about it.
That being said, i want to make sure i know it will continue to work so i dont get stranded on a over night trip.
If someone could point me to the right TM that would be awesome...
also, tips/tricks and a diagram would be awesome.

 

[Keith_J]

These engines have high compression ratios which is generally a bad idea for ether. In cold weather, air density with high compression ratios plus oil thickening and lower battery current means slow cranking speed. Intake flame heaters reduce air density plus add heat, meaning higher crank speed and faster starts.

 

[rustystud]

These engines have high compression ratios which is generally a bad idea for ether. In cold weather, air density with high compression ratios plus oil thickening and lower battery current means slow cranking speed. Intake flame heaters reduce air density plus add heat, meaning higher crank speed and faster starts.

Actually "ether" is fine in any high compression engine if used wisely. Also the "intake flame heater" does nothing to the engine oil or cranking speed. It just heats the incoming air. That helps ignite the fuel quicker, but does nothing for cranking speed or current draw or oil thickness. Now lets consider why the military went to the "ether" injection system. It is much simpler, cheaper to maintain and there is no way fuel can leak. The "intake flame heater" system is much more complicated, prone to leaks and malfunctions. Also parts are extremely difficult to find, and when you do find them they want a "arm and a leg" for them.
In my opinion if you need a cold weather start system and already have a good operating " intake flame system" keep it. If it is causing you problems, get rid of it and add a "ether" injection system.

 

[18operator]

My flame heater started leaking fuel onto the turbo, so I disconnected the fuel to it. I never had a problem starting my truck in the cold anyway. I'd rather have no flame heater than an engine bay fire any day.

 

[cattlerepairman]

I actually get better results w/ a hand held can. The kit in my truck hits the engine hard, much harder than if I'm using a can.
Maybe I'm just good w/ a can But I have heard that my engine might not be turning over fast enough to use the kit. Have also thought of moving the either injector over on the air cleaner mount. Something to get it farther away and mix it up a bit before it makes it in. Haven't done anything and don't really need it that much, but . . .

That is interesting. One of the reasons diesels shed their piston rings is because Dude A, with no Dude B available, sprays ether into the intake as if the cans were on sale, walks over to the driver side and cranks the engine over afterwards. Then one or two cylinders suck in all the goodies and the resulting bang puts mechanic's kids through college.
I like the military ether start kit for that reason...it is a metered dose and can be used correctly by Soldier A alone, from the cab. And, with the temp sensor, it will not even activate until it needs to.

The high compression of the multifuel means that air heats up really quickly in the cylinders during the compression stroke. This, in turn and with a little bit of time, heats up the rest of the chamber. That is why, even in freezing conditions, after 10 or so rotation cycles, the combustion chamber is hot enough for the diesel to ignite. The ether start really is only needed for the temps we get up here in the winter, or what the guys in Alaska face. In more extreme cases, not even the ether start may be enough, without putting some external heat to it.

 

[rustystud]

That is interesting. One of the reasons diesels shed their piston rings is because Dude A, with no Dude B available, sprays ether into the intake as if the cans were on sale, walks over to the driver side and cranks the engine over afterwards. Then one or two cylinders suck in all the goodies and the resulting bang puts mechanic's kids through college.
I like the military ether start kit for that reason...it is a metered dose and can be used correctly by Soldier A alone, from the cab. And, with the temp sensor, it will not even activate until it needs to.

The high compression of the multifuel means that air heats up really quickly in the cylinders during the compression stroke. This, in turn and with a little bit of time, heats up the rest of the chamber. That is why, even in freezing conditions, after 10 or so rotation cycles, the combustion chamber is hot enough for the diesel to ignite. The ether start really is only needed for the temps we get up here in the winter, or what the guys in Alaska face. In more extreme cases, not even the ether start may be enough, without putting some external heat to it.

I agree about the need for any external help starting the multifuel. I removed my ether start system years ago. Never needed it here. Now if I lived up North like Canada or Alaska that would be a different story, but down here in the lower 48 there really is no need as long as your truck is running properly.

 

[LowTech]

I agree about the need for any external help starting the multifuel. I removed my ether start system years ago. Never needed it here. Now if I lived up North like Canada or Alaska that would be a different story, but down here in the lower 48 there really is no need as long as your truck is running properly.

I agree that running diesel these trucks start easy, I don't run diesel.
W/ freezing, or near freezing temps, and 100% waste motor oil I usually need something for the initial start.
If I'm in those temps very long I cut the wmo w/ some gas and then I'm back to easy starts. It also helps w/ letting it get through the filters fast enough that I don't have fuel starvation at speed before the fuel in the tank is warmed up.

www.DirtTrackTravelers.com

 

[davidb56]

when the temps get down to the negatives, my Kubota will not start on glow, or ether. I have to use the block heater(coolant) for about 2 hours. Before I installed it, It took about 4-6 hours with a magnetic oil pan heater. My cummins needs its block heater also at those temps. I intend to install one when I buy my M35.