Compliance with DOT???

[rat4spd]

Playing dumb, only gets you so far.

I was being facetious.

 

[tmbrwolf]

Check with the DMV if your state has non-commercial classes, in Kansas you can get a non commercial "class A or B" it will allow you to drive the same "weight class" vehicle as commercial, only not for hire. For example if you own a five ton cargo the GVW is over 26,001 LBS it will require you to have a class B to legally drive it on the road, a tractor truck will require a class A. If there is no intent to make a living driving for hire go with the non commercial class. The non commercial classes don't require a medical and are less expensive.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

South Carolina does that, and they call it an E or F endorsment. Mostly it's for farmers with big trailer loads and giganormous RV operations. I've been meaning to either go that route or get my CDL. Problem with CDL is all the added complications. (Logbook, rest times, etc)

 

[rmgill]

You need to be carefull when it comes to stuff like this. Recently there was a group with some armor who were coming into Michigan to participate in a reenactment. They were stopped at the scale and they didin't have log books, ect under the I'm hauling my own stuff for non comercial use. The scale called the people running the event an were told that the event was paying for thier fuel. That was all it took, a fine and a 10 hour parking was next. Needless to say they were a noshow for the first day of the event. Even if the event was buying them a cup of coffee, it still is considered a commercial venture.

This is where knowing the regulations in depth is more appropriate.


Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the ‘‘occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise’’ apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

Hobby purpose vehicles with a minor compensation for your costs but not in any way approaching a business function, could possibly fall into this area. It's one of those things that is right on the line.

The fundamental point is that the FMCSA's and by adoption, the various state regulations is specfically meant to regulate vehicles that are "in Commerce". This is a VERY precise thing and would likely need to be kicked up to the VERY senior level of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's offices.

You CAN get money from the event. It just can't be a sponsorship where you're advertising for them (PENZOIL on the side of your race trailer) nor can you deduct the costs as a business expense.

 

[rmgill]

I will note, that I have even spoken to Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration staffers who were unaware of the finer details of the not for profit private trucks. In one instance while trying to deal with the County, I was double checking some notes to make sure the regs hadn't changed got a Field Examiner on the phone who opined that price money would make the vehicle commercial. I politely countered that I had a letter from Don Harris (who is the guy who trains these guys at the Federal AND state level) explaining and citing FMCSA Regs that prize money was NOT commercial income unless it was connected to sponsorship.

Several examples given when speaking do Mr Harris and the National Legislative Compliance Director follow:

A person who has horses and has a Class B or Class A rig which hauls to say horse competitions may or may not be commercial. If the horse farm is a business/farm, and you're out of your 350? mile radius [I can't remember what the farm radius exclusion is], then you're probably going to need a CDL and DOT numbers on your truck. You have a business and you're going to need to comply since you're exceeding the normally exempt distance. However, if you're joe blow who's a legal jockey, and just happen to have a lot of money and a wife that likes horses, and you're driving a Class A rig (say a Super Duty Pickup and a 16,000 lb horse trailer) long distances, even the prize money, as won is NOT in the furtherance of a business and you are thus exempt from the regulations.

The other example given was the race trailer. If you're competing as part of say a hobby race club, happen to have a good bit of money and a large rig, you're not going to be commercial until you start getting sponsorship deals. Don't go putting big stickers all over your car if you want to stay non-commercial.


the Key thing to understand is that 383 and 390 both explicitly say "in commerce" when speaking to applicability.

I will however craft a letter and send it along to Don Harris to find out the further details of how it works for MV events and groups that chip in some money to help you cover your movement costs.

 

[rmgill]

As to weigh stations, my two long trips to PA and back and other trips around the regions for events saw me running through the weight stations and I was only pulled aside once. That was so they could eyeball the armoured car because they thought it was unusual AND just wanted to ask me questions about that. that was the first time through that stop in SC on I85 North Bound. On my subsequent trips through there, they remembered me and chatted with me a few moments on the scales.

So far a friendly attitude and a light offer of Hey, I'm probably not supposed to stop but I am anyhow, goes a long way.

 

[CGarbee]

My comments about vehicle registration, license class, and insurance, for vehicle domiciled in North Carolina are (should be) in the thread that Chuck referenced in his earlier post.

In a nutshel:
North Carolina has NON-CDL Class A, B, and C operator's permits (licenses). If you are not driving commercially, then you get one of these based on weight and configuration.
If it is a truck that is 25 years or older, you can run a Transporter Plate ($14/year, transferable between vehicles). If it is less then 25 years of age, you have to run a weighted tag (cost is based on declared weight which must be at least the tare weight of the vehicle and which must account for all cargo and for the towed load -if any).
Insurance is required (liability). Minimums are higher for commercial vehicles, lower for non-commercial. Many agents don't know the difference between a truck that is non-commercial and one that is, so this is where you need to be prepared to talk some...

Note: The transporter tags can only be obtained at the NCDMV offices in Raleigh and Charlotte, not at the contract tag/registration offices. Once you get them, you can renew by mail.

If you live in North Carolina and want "chapter and verse", email me directly and I'll pass on the relevent pages from the General Statutes, DMV Regulations, and Motor Carrier Enforcement Manuals. Or, I'll answer questions.

Like Chuck, I try to avoid these threads, but they are like beer and chips...

 

[Bad_Carp]

In California anything over 6000lbs gross having three (3) axles requires a commercial Class B which includes the medical card.

Ref. CVC12804.9(b)(2) and California Commercial Driver Handbook 2009 (pg. 1). These sections are for operators licensing only and do not include registration issues.

Not if the vehicle is registered as a housecar (RV). The reason to own an M109 in CA.

 

[3dubs]

Texas does have a non-commercial license. It is an exemption to the commercial requirement if "4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use; or" The form is ftp://ftp.txdps.state.tx.us/forms/cdl-2.pdf there is also an exemption on the form for farm vehicles.

 

[Michael]

Anybody want to bring up the 10000 pound rule and interstate commerce?

 

[NDT]

Thanks everyone so far, especially Jake0147 and rmgill. Let's keep this thread off the CDL track, i.e., what the law requires of YOU the driver as far as licensing. Where we all need better information is what is required of our TRUCKS, both with state and federal DOT requirements. My home state would not exempt me from State DOT registration because of personal non-profit hobby use. So like a faithful citizen I jumped though all the hoops. The pertinent question is, many States requre Federal DOT registration as well. Do we the MV hobby community have to comply? I think not. Remember we are only talking about 5 ton trucks and above, you deuce guys don't have enough GVW.

 

[datsunaholic]

I actually got a note in the mail with my renewal notice that I Might need a USDOT number to be allowed to re-register my Deuce. It made it so I had to renew in person, rather than online or via mail. However, after being asked a couple questions they determined I didn't need the DOT number. But if I was using the truck commercially I would have had to. It's because the truck is titled and licensed under the commercial use class (due to its weight). But I'm in WA, and as noted every State administers the program differently.

 

[Michael]

Thanks everyone so far, especially Jake0147 and rmgill. Let's keep this thread off the CDL track, i.e., what the law requires of YOU the driver as far as licensing. Where we all need better information is what is required of our TRUCKS, both with state and federal DOT requirements. My home state would not exempt me from State DOT registration because of personal non-profit hobby use. So like a faithful citizen I jumped though all the hoops. The pertinent question is, many States requre Federal DOT registration as well. Do we the MV hobby community have to comply? I think not. Remember we are only talking about 5 ton trucks and above, you deuce guys don't have enough GVW.

OK, but you can't exclude deuces or even M1008s if you pull a trailer if you cross state lines or live in NY or GA and are involved in any form of commerce. If you are over 26000 within your state or over 10000 outside your state and involved in commerce you need a DOT number and all the baggage that goes with it according to the feds. Each state may add its own requirements like requiring all trucks regardless of use on top of this. The problem is that a large percentage of LEOs think that anything big must be involved in commerce until you prove to them otherwise, like the guys with the tank found out. I agree with Ryan that the people with the tank probably did meet the exclusion that he mentioned, but the LEO had already decided that they desirved a ticket and looked until they found something to justify it. So if you fill your duece up with stuff to sell at a show and cross state lines the feds say you need a DOT number which also requires a health card, log book, safty eq, spare light bulbs etc.

I will add that this is my opinion after reading a lot of posts and doing a lot of reseach. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advise. All of this BS is so complicated , varies from state to state and open to interpation that you probably won't get the exact same advise from any two people. I will add that Ida34 and ryan know what they are talking about.

 

[OPCOM]

M818 with a 109 box instead of the 5th wheel gets close to 26K as-is, but registered as a antique in TX, commercial should not be an issue.

I did not see where a special license was needed for the 5 ton. Did I not understand the answer?

 

[woodywood]

the law of the state you are from applies to you no matter what state you are in.as long as you comply to the rules where you are from wherever you are has to honor them. i.e. in tennessee if you are hauling/driving personal property you do not have to have a c.d.l. and also there is not a weight limit on what you can haul as long as it is done safely. my

 

[tmbrwolf]

M818 with a 109 box instead of the 5th wheel gets close to 26K as-is, but registered as a antique in TX, commercial should not be an issue.

I did not see where a special license was needed for the 5 ton. Did I not understand the answer?

It really depends on your home state, and how the vehicle is registered / used. Bottom line the DOT rules start with vehicles over 26001 LBS or are considered "combination" vehicles in most states. Here if the vehicle is 26001 LBS or over and has a fifth wheel installed it REQUIRES a class A license wether pulling a trailer or not. A 5 ton's GVW is over 26001 LBS and would require a class B license. And I'll throw another "monkey wrench' into the works, depending on your state a vehicle may require a Class A, B or C with air brake endorsement because it has an air boosted brake system. If it has an air compressor, guage and warning buzzer it's considered an "air brake system" in some states.

 

[cumminsdieselpower]

Gentleman... I have been wanting an 816 wrecker for a long time..... If I purchase a 816 wrecker in Illinois and want to drive it down to Florida and its my personal driver with no commercial use, My feelings are that they will mess with me at the weigh stations or be pulled over to check the log book???. {Do I have to go to the weigh station with a 5 ton wrecker unloaded??} Or all the 5 ton trucks plagued with this DOT crap. So for what I see CDL's will be needed to keep out of trouble with the 5 tons. Or can I register this vehicle {collector}so they leave me alone??? Sorry if I am repeating all this but I want this answer plane and simple. Thank you for your time fellas!!

 

[southdave]

Odot around here really don't know the rules that well and leave it to county judge and procutor to determine what wrong or right most times it budgetary judgements all I say your are guilty till proven inocent when it comes to PUCCO so lawyer up or pay and pay

 

[DieselBob]

My feelings are that they will mess with me at the weigh stations or be pulled over to check the log book???.

Well if you come through the peoples republic of Maryland,

From the MDOT regs


'8. What vehicles must go through weigh stations in Maryland?

All vehicles with a gross vehicle weight or gross vehicle weight rating of greater than 10,000 pounds must stop at open weigh stations. Only vehicles that are operating in commerce will be subject to a safety inspection.

9. Does a rental truck hauling personal property have to stop at weigh stations?

Yes, if it weighs more than 10,000 pounds. However, these vehicles will not be subject to a safety inspection."

 

[Michael]

Sorry if I am repeating all this but I want this answer plane and simple. Thank you for your time fellas!!

Unfortunately, you are wanting more than the law will allow.

You are suppose to be legal in any state if you are legal in your home state. In my state, I would be legal. The trick is proving it to every LEO you meet on the trip.

Another problem seems to me to be that the bar just keeps on being lowered. I have never heard of non commercial people having to stop at scales. Does the Maryland law state which standard they use for combination vehicles. The federal standard for a CDL is that the trailer has to be over 10000 to add to the weight, ie a 25000 truck can pull a 9000 pound trailer and not need a CDL. On the other hand, to meet the 10000 pound limit for health cards, log books etc for interstate travel, a 7000 pickup pulling a 4000 pound trailer would have to do it. Also is there an exception for RVs and boats?