Connecting autostart controllers 802A / 803A and 831A

[DieselAddict]

I would set it to kick out on oil pressure.

 

[Dwnorton1]

Would it not be possible to make oil pressure before unit it actually started? If it has frequency input that has high enough range 254hz from pma you could that to verify run Or you could just use the 24vdc permissive power to governor speed control through k12 relay which in effect is oil pressure and all other conditions are happy.

 

[DieselAddict]

The freq of the PMA would be the best thing to use assuming the controller can read frequency above say 100hz and 200v. Once it gets that high you are for certain not on the starter.

 

[craigc]

I thought about this some more and since its just a sense signal what do you think about pulling the freq from the hot on the back of the convenience outlet then we dont have to worry about before after the contractor. I've used the freq to stop crank before and it works really well. The only problem is that the controller freq range for crank is 0-40Hz so I guess I'll just have to test it.

 

[DieselAddict]

That I don't recommend because if anything causes the inverter to fault you get zero output even with the engine running.

 

[craigc]

Excellent point, well I haven't dug into this yet but if there is no rpm signal (controller can count flywheel teeth) then it maybe my only option since there is no actual oil pressure.

That I don't recommend because if anything causes the inverter to fault you get zero output even with the engine running.

 

[Dwnorton1]

That I don't recommend because if anything causes the inverter to fault you get zero output even with the engine running.

I can attest to that. I had a bit of inverter issue and unit was still running while a couple of capacitors were on fire or at least having melt down.

 

[DieselAddict]

You are choosing the more challenging machine to start with. These are a little different than your typical generator.

 

[craigc]

You are so right ! I was just thinking that. Its pretty cold here and the 831A is the only one I can get in my garage so I thought I'll start with that one. I'll keep on trying to figure it out with all the help from the knowledgeable people here.

You are choosing the more challenging machine to start with. These are a little different than your typical generator.

 

[Guyfang]

Thanks again, here's some screen shots of the controller software. Would you mind giving your opinion on what input would work best for the engine crank stop. Thinking this thru a bit more I guess I'd have to use the freq from the input to the contactor.
View attachment 665651View attachment 665650

For engine crank stop, on the 802 or 803, the MPU, (Magnetic Pick Up) sends a signal to the A-1, (volt regulator) to cut out the starter and excite the Main gen, at a predetermined RPM. That signal should work. For the 831, you guys have look at the schematics. I am almost sure the 831 has a starter lock out circuit. Need to look.

We here in german use a very similar monitoring system for Photoelectric and Biogas power generation set ups. I was only involved in the installation, not programing. I am an old dinosaur. Did not want to get into that at that stage of my life.

 

[craigc]

I've talked to the tech support people and have decided to install a MPU to read RPM and its $40. Its 2 wires and drill a 3/8 hole in the sheet metal flywheel cover. I'll take the recoil starter off and then the flywheel cover to determine the best location for the MPU.

http://www.davidsonsalesshop.com/te...tBasic.aspx?ProductGuid=DSC17200&GroupGuid=79

 

[Guyfang]

Great idea!

 

[DieselAddict]

I'm having to do the same thing for my home brew governor.

 

[Dwnorton1]

I hope there is a balance weight you can trigger off of. I don't know if scan rate would be fast enough for teeth counting. I searched TM and didn't find anything about flywheel or pull starter. Went to Yanmar site but didn't find many real details, more sales brochure

 

[craigc]

You brought up a great point so I just spent working that out buy considering a optical non contact RPM sensor where we could put a small reflective strip on the flywheel. I looked at the manual for my controller and realized it mentions a maximum frequency of 10,000. Calculating the engine running at 3000 RPM with for instance 100 teeth translates into 300KHz! which is way over the scan rate. BUT the previous calculation is incorrect. it should be 10KHz (1 second) x 60 (seconds for 1 Minute) = 600KHz. In the controller software you set the amount of teeth on the flywheel so it basically divides the freq by the number of teeth to display the RPM. You can program between 5-500 teeth so I think it will work. Calculating this out 600KHz divided by number of a RPM of 4000 for example would allow for a maximum of 150 teeth. I tried to find the teeth count as well and I may just have to count them.

I found this optical sensor that one member of a forum said they used it up to 4000 RPM, its also is powered by 10-30 VDC and there is a model that outputs TTL or 5 VDC. This might be a good option as well.

http://www.alliedelec.com/m/d/dc213775e95b7f784ecb6ba92f1f3699.pdf

 

[craigc]

I think this is the correct part number for the ring gear for the Yanmar L70AE series and I counted 97 teeth, I counted once but it gets us close to the count. I think the MPU with the 7310 controller will work fine. I ordered the MPU so we will soon see.

 

[Dwnorton1]

Another argument for the optical over the mag pickup is the mag pickups will also have trouble differentiating the gaps in the teeth with them being so close. In my experience mag pickups like a pretty good gap between cycles to be accurate. This is based on PLC based equipment, not necessarily one of these controllers, which I have -0- experience with. Just my experience which may not be correct for this particular application.

Another possibility is that the flywheel will have holes in it to lighten it up and it might be possible to position mpu over one of these.

 

[DieselAddict]

Don't ignore the possibility of putting your own targets on the flywheel. With that method you control the number of pulses per rev. You need to use at least two in opposing positions to keep the flywheel balanced.

 

[Guyfang]

Another argument for the optical over the mag pickup is the mag pickups will also have trouble differentiating the gaps in the teeth with them being so close. In my experience mag pickups like a pretty good gap between cycles to be accurate. This is based on PLC based equipment, not necessarily one of these controllers, which I have -0- experience with. Just my experience which may not be correct for this particular application.Another possibility is that the flywheel will have holes in it to lighten it up and it might be possible to position mpu over one of these.

The military has been using MPU technology since the 80's. The bugs are worked out of it. The only problems encountered, are normally dirt and metal filings. All other problems are user caused. Screw in the mag pick up to far, need a new one. Screw it out too far, won't work. Since the first time I saw a the MPU system installed, say 1985? I can count the number of mag pickups that have gone bad, on one hand. It simply doesn't get any easier then MPU for speed control, starter cut out and any other function of MPU technology. The holes between the teeth on a flywheel would have to be incredibly large, for the MPU to not function. Even in the flywheel is stopped, it wouldn't make a difference. The signal isn't being read by any component until the engine starts, or runs. Its a good system. I wonder why its not being used already on 831's?

 

[DieselAddict]

I wonder why its not being used already on 831's?

The frequency output of the PMA is the speed signal that is used by the governor module. Using a MPU on that one would be redundant.