54hms
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Contemplating a Bobber! To do or not to do that is the question!
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Section8
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Hit another snag in the engine swap!!!
I thought things were going to smooth! I finally started to finalize lining things up and dropped the motor in place for clearance of the axle and hood. Now the new problem of lining it up to centre in the frame and inline with transfer case.
The flexplate and bell housing come into interference with the top dogbone bolt and the floor plate by the gas pedal!
If I raise the motor it will interfere with the hood towards the grill. If I lower the motor it will come into contact with the axle on full compression of springs.
If I move it back I will have to cut up the firewall and it screw up engine mounts I have been making and require a whole rethink of how to mount the motor.
Is the top dog bone really necessary??? I don't want to mess with the front end but it sure would be nice to rip that ****ing thing out so I can keep going with everything I done so far.
New things were to good! Dang!! A bonus is that the steel hoses on the top of the 6bt for the heater core will line up perfectly with the holes in the firewall and heater placement.
I thought things were going to smooth! I finally started to finalize lining things up and dropped the motor in place for clearance of the axle and hood. Now the new problem of lining it up to centre in the frame and inline with transfer case.
The flexplate and bell housing come into interference with the top dogbone bolt and the floor plate by the gas pedal!
If I raise the motor it will interfere with the hood towards the grill. If I lower the motor it will come into contact with the axle on full compression of springs.
If I move it back I will have to cut up the firewall and it screw up engine mounts I have been making and require a whole rethink of how to mount the motor.
Is the top dog bone really necessary??? I don't want to mess with the front end but it sure would be nice to rip that ****ing thing out so I can keep going with everything I done so far.
New things were to good! Dang!! A bonus is that the steel hoses on the top of the 6bt for the heater core will line up perfectly with the holes in the firewall and heater placement.
Gunfreak25
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Yes, you will want that top dog bone to keep the axle housing as secure to the chassis as possible. I will take a look at my truck tomorrow and get back with you on a possible solution. If the top dog bone frame mount is riveted on it would be a very simple process of removing the rivets and making an adapter plate that connects to the old rivet holes. The adapter plate would just move the bracket lower under the frame instead of inside the frame rail itself.
Another possible solution is tiling the engine, I am not there to see how good of an idea this is. But there is nothing wrong with even a pretty substantial amount of motor off set. The 6.2's/th400 in the HMMWV's were offset to a pretty significant degree I believe for driveshaft clearance to the front axle. A lot of vans were setup this way too.
Another possible solution is tiling the engine, I am not there to see how good of an idea this is. But there is nothing wrong with even a pretty substantial amount of motor off set. The 6.2's/th400 in the HMMWV's were offset to a pretty significant degree I believe for driveshaft clearance to the front axle. A lot of vans were setup this way too.
Section8
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Ok quick update!
No I haven't gotten the motor locked down yet. Yes I am going to have to cut the firewall. I am also going to have to move the transfer case back as well since the Getrag 360 five speed is hard mated to its own transfercase and there is no way to make it dissapear without lots of money.
I have been trying to figure out if I can just keep the bellhousing from the Getrag and put a NV4500 in it? Can't seem to get a precise answer on that. Some say yes some say no.
I have also been looking at what my gear ratios will be since seeing Gunfreaks post in the CUCV section.I must be way off on my math!!!! I tried an online calculator for final drive ratios with the Getrag and the 6.17 diffs. All I can say is WHAT??? I got huge numbers!!!
First gear at the wheels would be 34.12!! Second 18.64, third 9.872, fourth 6.17, fifth 4.75, reverse 31.03!!!!
I thought I would have better ratios not worse!! And if I go to a 46 inch tire instead of the 42 inch 1100's they ratios get higher still!!! What the heck??!!
I thought the ratios should get better not worse??
They get any higher and I would be in fifth gear with the engine screaming going 15MPH!!
No I haven't gotten the motor locked down yet. Yes I am going to have to cut the firewall. I am also going to have to move the transfer case back as well since the Getrag 360 five speed is hard mated to its own transfercase and there is no way to make it dissapear without lots of money.
I have been trying to figure out if I can just keep the bellhousing from the Getrag and put a NV4500 in it? Can't seem to get a precise answer on that. Some say yes some say no.
I have also been looking at what my gear ratios will be since seeing Gunfreaks post in the CUCV section.I must be way off on my math!!!! I tried an online calculator for final drive ratios with the Getrag and the 6.17 diffs. All I can say is WHAT??? I got huge numbers!!!
First gear at the wheels would be 34.12!! Second 18.64, third 9.872, fourth 6.17, fifth 4.75, reverse 31.03!!!!
I thought I would have better ratios not worse!! And if I go to a 46 inch tire instead of the 42 inch 1100's they ratios get higher still!!! What the heck??!!
I thought the ratios should get better not worse??
They get any higher and I would be in fifth gear with the engine screaming going 15MPH!!
Gunfreak25
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Well buddy I don't want to pour salt into your wound but your numbers are correct. I do not remember which year cummins you are running but the early B series 5.9's will all hit peak power/economy at 1600 to 1700rpm which is going to put you between 45-50mph for best power through the gears and fuel efficiency. Going from 11.00's to super single 46" will only drop rpm's by about 150.
Diesels have a NARROW power band that they like to operate at where power/mpg will be the best whereas gas engines have a BROADER power band. From my research over the past couple years I have found that most guys agree for every 100rpm increase over your power band you can expect to loose 1mpg in a diesel engine.
If it were MY truck I would be happy you have the 5.9 which is basically the best small diesel engine you can put in any medium duty truck.
In the beginning of your thread I was a pretty strong advocate of going with the 6.2/700r4 combo. And it's not still too late! You could EASILY sell your current setup, go the 6.2 route and STILL have money leftover for beer and ladies. If you go with a NP205 which is SO MUCH shorter than my Np241 you shouldn't have to move the GMC transfer back which will save you hours of work and a $300 alone in drive shaft mods.
I expect to see 15mpg not to mention a low range that should allow the truck to climb completely verticle if I wanted to.
Just food for thought, i'd be happy to talk this over with you over the phone sometime. But not right now, dinner is calling.
Diesels have a NARROW power band that they like to operate at where power/mpg will be the best whereas gas engines have a BROADER power band. From my research over the past couple years I have found that most guys agree for every 100rpm increase over your power band you can expect to loose 1mpg in a diesel engine.
If it were MY truck I would be happy you have the 5.9 which is basically the best small diesel engine you can put in any medium duty truck.
In the beginning of your thread I was a pretty strong advocate of going with the 6.2/700r4 combo. And it's not still too late! You could EASILY sell your current setup, go the 6.2 route and STILL have money leftover for beer and ladies. If you go with a NP205 which is SO MUCH shorter than my Np241 you shouldn't have to move the GMC transfer back which will save you hours of work and a $300 alone in drive shaft mods.
I expect to see 15mpg not to mention a low range that should allow the truck to climb completely verticle if I wanted to.
Just food for thought, i'd be happy to talk this over with you over the phone sometime. But not right now, dinner is calling.
Section8
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Well ****!
It was my understanding that the larger the tire the potental for smaller (rubber) gearing. I have read lots of threads on here of how guys are getting better highway speeds and milage with larger tires.
I also figured that if I went with a better tranny with lower ratios to start with that I would at least see better numbers not worse.
I am going to have to do the math again and see if it worth the 1500 bucks for new ring and pinions at a 5.43 ratio.
Might lower my rpms a bit more so I don't have to worry about blowing my engine up just trying to get out of first gear and get closer to staying in the power band of the engine.
Either that or I should buy a newer 2-5 ton truck and just do a body swap!
Well the way it stands the whole deal may be on hold or for sale soon anyway. Business isn't doing well and the farm is giving the killing blow this year.
It was my understanding that the larger the tire the potental for smaller (rubber) gearing. I have read lots of threads on here of how guys are getting better highway speeds and milage with larger tires.
I also figured that if I went with a better tranny with lower ratios to start with that I would at least see better numbers not worse.
I am going to have to do the math again and see if it worth the 1500 bucks for new ring and pinions at a 5.43 ratio.
Might lower my rpms a bit more so I don't have to worry about blowing my engine up just trying to get out of first gear and get closer to staying in the power band of the engine.
Either that or I should buy a newer 2-5 ton truck and just do a body swap!
Well the way it stands the whole deal may be on hold or for sale soon anyway. Business isn't doing well and the farm is giving the killing blow this year.
Gunfreak25
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Larger tires do help mileage, especially when going from the hard bias ply tires to modern radials. But remember, most deuce owners are going from 40" 9.00's to the 46" michelins. That's quite a jump in size. If I recall your 11.00's are already 43". Super singles are also $300+ each (around here) and each tire weighs over 350lbs. Changing a 46" michelin on the side of the road would be next to impossible, not to mention it will have to be kept in the bed as it will not fit on the stock spare tire carrier.
I would love to see the project continue (I think we all would!!) but I would also agree that a more modern truck might be better suited for your needs and wants. I wish I was in a position to buy everything off your hands and make it into a real sweet machine. I'd totally sell it back to you once the work was done.
I would love to see the project continue (I think we all would!!) but I would also agree that a more modern truck might be better suited for your needs and wants. I wish I was in a position to buy everything off your hands and make it into a real sweet machine. I'd totally sell it back to you once the work was done.
54hms
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As far as i know the getrag bell won't fit the nv4500. To bad you can't find a 2wd nv4500. The getrags work ok but are known for problems, such as getting stuck between gears. hopefuly with a 2wd tranny you wouldn't have to move the t-case. also, don't forget about other trannys..the cummins requires an adaptor plate to mate to the trans , and you can buy adaptor plates for most trannys. I have my cummins mated to a ford ZF-5 2wd tranny that was on a ford diesel. Just an idea...don't give up man...keep the cummins and keep the project rockin!!!
Section8
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Well I have done a ton of math!!! Ugh!!
I do have an older 12v 5.9L. It is a 92. Not the dreaded #53 block as far as I can tell from all the casting numbers.
I have crunched the number from 6.17 all the way to 4.11's for ring and pinion gears.
The 4.11's would at give me the following numbers:
First- 22.7283 final ratio at wheel at 11818.716 rpms
Second- 12.4122 frw / 6454.344 rpm
Third- 6.5760 frw / 3419.52 rpm
Fourth- 4.11 frw / 2137.200 rpm
Fifth- 3.1647 frw / 1645.644 rpm
Reverse- 20.6733 frw / 10750.116 rpm
Now those are numbers I like. Fifth gear at the motors peak power band. Right smack in the middle of it!!!
The only problem is in all of my research the lowest gear ratio that was ever made for these old axles was 5.43. I have found some of those gears from a guy in Tolito
I am now trying to get in touch with local manufactors to see what it would cost to have some custom gears made. I am also trying to see if some of the Rockwell/ Dana gears will work in the carrier.
Other options would be completely different axles but I have not found stock single axles like our rigs out there unless they're modified.
I will let you all know what it would cost for new gears if I ever get an answer from the companies I have contacted.
Do you all think 4.11 would be good for hills? They are good for my engine rpms and not having a melted block, but may lack power for hills. I do live in the rockies.
Opinions????
I do have an older 12v 5.9L. It is a 92. Not the dreaded #53 block as far as I can tell from all the casting numbers.
I have crunched the number from 6.17 all the way to 4.11's for ring and pinion gears.
The 4.11's would at give me the following numbers:
First- 22.7283 final ratio at wheel at 11818.716 rpms
Second- 12.4122 frw / 6454.344 rpm
Third- 6.5760 frw / 3419.52 rpm
Fourth- 4.11 frw / 2137.200 rpm
Fifth- 3.1647 frw / 1645.644 rpm
Reverse- 20.6733 frw / 10750.116 rpm
Now those are numbers I like. Fifth gear at the motors peak power band. Right smack in the middle of it!!!
The only problem is in all of my research the lowest gear ratio that was ever made for these old axles was 5.43. I have found some of those gears from a guy in Tolito
I am now trying to get in touch with local manufactors to see what it would cost to have some custom gears made. I am also trying to see if some of the Rockwell/ Dana gears will work in the carrier.
Other options would be completely different axles but I have not found stock single axles like our rigs out there unless they're modified.
I will let you all know what it would cost for new gears if I ever get an answer from the companies I have contacted.
Do you all think 4.11 would be good for hills? They are good for my engine rpms and not having a melted block, but may lack power for hills. I do live in the rockies.
Opinions????
Section8
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Ok. Sit rep!
I haven't gotten much response from gear manufatures out this way. Out of the twenty or so I have contacted only a half of a dozen have told me they either don't do it or won't touch it with a ten foot pool due to liabilities since it will be an on road use application.
I have also done some more math on ratios tires sizes and the likes.
It seems that if I a person used 1400's with 5.43 diffs in fifth gear I would be running 2000rpms.
If I ran 1600's with 5.43 diffs I would be hitting 1700 rpms in fifth gear.
The other consideration to those tire sizes is HEAVY!!
I am also looking at ditching my getrag eventually and getting a MT653 *llison automatic.
Then I don't have to figure out cluch pedal dynamics. Plus those trannies are non electronic and made for medium to heavy trucks. They are in garbage trucks and the likes.
I also just scapped 50 bucks together and bought some 3/8 flat steel to make my engine mounts!
Yay! I always said my main goal this year was to at least get the motor locked away!
Times running short, snow is coming around the corner!
Gonna get right at it ( maybe after my wedding in october).
End sit rep! Over!
I haven't gotten much response from gear manufatures out this way. Out of the twenty or so I have contacted only a half of a dozen have told me they either don't do it or won't touch it with a ten foot pool due to liabilities since it will be an on road use application.
I have also done some more math on ratios tires sizes and the likes.
It seems that if I a person used 1400's with 5.43 diffs in fifth gear I would be running 2000rpms.
If I ran 1600's with 5.43 diffs I would be hitting 1700 rpms in fifth gear.
The other consideration to those tire sizes is HEAVY!!
I am also looking at ditching my getrag eventually and getting a MT653 *llison automatic.
Then I don't have to figure out cluch pedal dynamics. Plus those trannies are non electronic and made for medium to heavy trucks. They are in garbage trucks and the likes.
I also just scapped 50 bucks together and bought some 3/8 flat steel to make my engine mounts!
Yay! I always said my main goal this year was to at least get the motor locked away!
Times running short, snow is coming around the corner!
Gonna get right at it ( maybe after my wedding in october).
End sit rep! Over!
Gunfreak25
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Sounds like you've decided to keep chugging away. I'm glad i've stuck it out. 
The BIGGEST thing to remember with this work is think about what you WANT and STICK to it. I spent a year with the M211 gutless because I couldn't decide if I wanted to rebuild the torn apart 455 I had in it or go with a different engine. When I finally decided on the 6.2 is when things starting falling into place and really coming together. Plus I got tired of looking at an empty engine bay!
I think you'll be happy with whatever you end up doing. The automatic is a neat idea, I love automatics. One arm on the wheel and the other around your woman.
The BIGGEST thing to remember with this work is think about what you WANT and STICK to it. I spent a year with the M211 gutless because I couldn't decide if I wanted to rebuild the torn apart 455 I had in it or go with a different engine. When I finally decided on the 6.2 is when things starting falling into place and really coming together. Plus I got tired of looking at an empty engine bay! I think you'll be happy with whatever you end up doing. The automatic is a neat idea, I love automatics. One arm on the wheel and the other around your woman.
Section8
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Well seems I don't have access to post on the clasifieds.
Gonna keep it short and sweet then.
Moderators feel free to delete if you deem necessary!
Going broke.
Pm me if you are interested in my M135.
My loss your gain.
This sucks!!! Hopin for a miracle!
Gonna keep it short and sweet then.
Moderators feel free to delete if you deem necessary!
Going broke.
Pm me if you are interested in my M135.
My loss your gain.
This sucks!!! Hopin for a miracle!
Last edited:
Section8
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I wanna finish my motor mounts for my 5.9L!!!
Gotta weld them yet.
Only worried about actually doing it cuz in order to bolt the motor down after making the mounts I have to cut the fire wall to allow room for the motor to move back so that the radiator will fit.
I don't want to cut the truck up if I can't keep it. Might hurt resale if some one recues it for restoration.
Of course if I can get it running I can take it with me if we have to foreclose on the farm and close up the business.
Still haven't checked my lotto tickets yet. Maybe all my praying worked and the big guy upstairs decided to save my sorry a**!
Gotta weld them yet.
Only worried about actually doing it cuz in order to bolt the motor down after making the mounts I have to cut the fire wall to allow room for the motor to move back so that the radiator will fit.
I don't want to cut the truck up if I can't keep it. Might hurt resale if some one recues it for restoration.
Of course if I can get it running I can take it with me if we have to foreclose on the farm and close up the business.
Still haven't checked my lotto tickets yet. Maybe all my praying worked and the big guy upstairs decided to save my sorry a**!
Gunfreak25
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I'll say a prayer tonight for "that section 8 guy" to get his 5.9 GMC project going. I want too see it happen as much as you do, the 5.9's are the best diesel engine ever made.
Section8
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Thanks for the prayers Gunfreak!
Must have worked. I didn't win the lottery but I found some work for a couple months running a D8 dozer. Got hired to fill in the local dump and clear an area for a new one, then repeat in the next town.
Might be enough to buy me some time and not have to scrap the old girl!
Now to get my a** in gear and weld those motor mounts!
Must have worked. I didn't win the lottery but I found some work for a couple months running a D8 dozer. Got hired to fill in the local dump and clear an area for a new one, then repeat in the next town.
Might be enough to buy me some time and not have to scrap the old girl!
Now to get my a** in gear and weld those motor mounts!
Gunfreak25
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Any updates?
Section8
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Sorry no updates. I am working my butt of to try and not lose the farm. Wife sold all the cows and we are closing our business. Working like a mad man to make a buck. I don't have time for the truck so it has been listed for sale. Of course with no real interest. Just the usual tire kickers. Will let everyone know if things change.
n1bnc
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Wrong coast.
350TacoZilla
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I hope I can help you out here a bit.
5th gear in your manual shouldnt be 1.00 it should be .77 so your rpm math works like this.
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 43 OD tires (11.00r20) = 2277 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 46 OD tires (395/85r20)= 2082 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 48 OD tires (14.00r20) = 1995 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 52 OD tires (16.00r20) = 1842 rpm
stock dodge
60mph - 4.10 gears - .77 5th od - 31 OD tires (265/75/16) = 2054 rpm
so 46-48's gets you right at a stock trucks gears.
for the disk brake swap I have done one but used isuzu box truck disks because they were much heavier duty 15.3" diameter and 1.5" thick along with 02 silverado 3500 dual piston calipers. I also flipped my hubs in to bring track width in for my chevy truck (thats a 12" adjustable laying on hub)
5th gear in your manual shouldnt be 1.00 it should be .77 so your rpm math works like this.
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 43 OD tires (11.00r20) = 2277 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 46 OD tires (395/85r20)= 2082 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 48 OD tires (14.00r20) = 1995 rpm
60mph - 6.17 gears - .77 5th od - 52 OD tires (16.00r20) = 1842 rpm
stock dodge
60mph - 4.10 gears - .77 5th od - 31 OD tires (265/75/16) = 2054 rpm
so 46-48's gets you right at a stock trucks gears.
for the disk brake swap I have done one but used isuzu box truck disks because they were much heavier duty 15.3" diameter and 1.5" thick along with 02 silverado 3500 dual piston calipers. I also flipped my hubs in to bring track width in for my chevy truck (thats a 12" adjustable laying on hub)
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Got any more pics of the disk brake swap? It would be very helpfull...