Desulfate.... or not... that is the question

[coachgeo]

pulled my post out of another thread so not to hijack the one on two batteries.

some background..... Thought my alternator was going/went out... but I was stuck ... I HAVE to drive truck everyday right now to get to work and weather/health is forcing me to not be able to lift and get under cab for further diagnosis.. Truck is all I got. So have been charging batts in morning then.... driving to a fro work in evening..... wash, rinse, repeat. Been that way for almost a month now. Last week tried something different (a short desulfating) and now realized it looked like mayyyyyybe desulfating was helping. So here is my report on desulfating

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(response to Ronmar who mentioned he had not seen much evidence pulse worked... beside if you just keep batts fully charged such as with solar during the day.. this makes de-sulfating unnecessary)

Agree (Ron)..... the pulse system in reality works best IMHO in associaton with maintaining 100% charge..... by increasing odds; a smidge more, that max amount of sulfur is kept from adhering to the plates; but that is even debated. For a few extra bucks.. with a build your own (solar charge system that includes inexpensive pulse/desulfate device) it is worth the try though. ......

Today, now it is more clear; cause a pattern is now consistently happening that appears to show if your batts are little off... desulfating might help

Had concluded week ago that do have a battery problem (they are 5yrs old) and the 12v side is suffering (normal problem with these trucks) Symptom was dash volt meter to show low volts (22-24v instead of 26-28v)... I assumed at first this was alt. not working. Low Battery on 12v side issue has been the only consistent thing was seeing. My conclusion at first was Alt not charging thus I was charging batts every day prior to leaving for work.

Took chance and used my chargers de-sulfate repair setting on 12v draw side of batts.... all the sudden my alternator started acting better.... at first I assumed though it was something else. ... and skipped doing another short desulfate cycle .... resulting in it went back to low dash reading as before hmmmm... So what the hell, tried once again the desulfate...... and once again dash showed higher volts/better alt. levels. hmmmm..... Today was another day after using pulse repair... again it showed battery volts/ alt output at dash volt meter to be much better. .... aka.... pattern is repeating??

Previously over last 3+ weeks with just charging and NO desulfating.... the dash meter never got to over 24v even if I charged all batts fully (fully= judging by hand held volt meter AT battery and charger's "% charge digital indicator"). Also during that period.. once got home after work; pattern was the night driving had pulled the 12v side down to approx 60% charge.. while the 24v side pair of batts by the chassis would be 98%? charge.

Pattern now is... after doing a short desulfate cycle; two different times; now my alt./dash reading is creeping up back to normalcy after about 15min. of driving/alt. charging on the way to work. 30 min drive... so that makes it 15 build up.... 15min normal alt charging judging by dash meter. Yesterday and again today; after 4 hours of truck sitting at work... then driving back home 30min.. Alt./volt dash meter showed a typical good volts/alt output in about 5 min of driving. and at home next day the 12v side is showing approx 95% charge and 24v side 100%.


So am thinking improvement by desulfating appears to be happening and that 12v side is not fully up to snuff yet (and may never get there on these old batts). Only other variable that has happened is it has gotten warmer and less rain.

Will do a longer de-sulfate period tomorrow and hopefully things improve even more. If so... this strengthens the potential that pulse desulfating may be doing something.

 

[kblazer87]

Desulfating definitely helps. I've brought 6 year old 6tl batteries back from the dead with desulfating trickle chargers.

 

[Ronmar]

If your alt is making 14.1/28.2, it should be charging your batteries just fine at ~1hr run time per day.

Start the truck, are you getting 14.1/28.2 AT THE ALT TERMINALS, and at the battery terminals?

If not, either the alt is overloaded(more than 100A combined load), probably due to bad/depleted batts.

Or the alt cannot deliver rated voltage with even a modest load applied. Your description of better dash voltage after pre-charging the batts sounds like this.

Round up a battery pile load tester. Start the truck, and if you have 14.1/28.2 at the alt, apply ~60-80A of load across 24v at the battery. Do you still have 14.1/28.2 at the alt? You should still have somerhing close...

I havnt run this test but I will this weekend and tell you what my alt delivers under load...

 

[coachgeo]

using an alt that is 200amp dual volt. Batteries when charged with 110v charger always returns each one back to what charger programing calls 100%. After rest and measured by volt meter that is 12.8v.

Presently I cant get to alt terminals.

What points on Rev. Polarity box are 14v and what are 24v. can measure there.

 

[Ronmar]

using an alt that is 200amp dual volt. Batteries when charged with 110v charger always returns each one back to what charger programing calls 100%. After rest and measured by volt meter that is 12.8v.

Presently I cant get to alt terminals.

What points on Rev. Polarity box are 14v and what are 24v. can measure there.

Should be top and bottom where large alt and battery leads attach. The load terms should be the middle pair with only one large lead on each terminal. Should also be able to measure at batt terminals... unless you have really bad connections between alt and batts, should not have significant drop with moderate load applied.

 

[coachgeo]

Yesturday. and day before did NOT use 110v charger prior to heading out to work. The 12v pair as well as individually showed 12.7v. The 24v as a pair showed 12.8.. Same individually. Not drivng anywhere yet today but am doing desulfate thing again. Prior to doing that.... it had same volt readings as above.

So today not raining thus getting chance to run "full" de sulfate repair a 12v ones. Other two desulfate times just did short ones of about 20 min. The deepest in the 12v pair went thru the smart chargers desulfate cycle pretty quick. I dont know how long.. The furthest forward one , that takes the brunt of 12v abuse.... is taking much longer and not done yet. THIS one batt. is the one likely causing the issues since smart charger is having more difficulty getting it thru a full de sulfate cycle. Have read more than once it can at times take more than once to get a battery back to someting close to its past norm.

 

[coachgeo]

...

Or the alt cannot deliver rated voltage with even a modest load applied. Your description of better dash voltage after pre-charging the batts sounds like this.

pre charging never did any change to dash in the month have been doing this so could get to and fro work. It just showed what was assuming to be just battery voltage (24v) after charging them with wall charger and lower by time got home (22v). Which hand held volt meter supported the next day too. (24v pair at 27v, 12v pair at 12.5v (60% discharge)

ONLY after desulfating has the dash volt meter moved past 24v back toward the place it normally sits around 26v. Granted it takes 15-20 min to get to it.. but it does.

 

[Guyfang]

Pattern now is... after doing a short desulfate cycle; two different times; now my alt./dash reading is creeping up back to normalcy after about 15min. of driving/alt. charging on the way to work. 30 min drive... so that makes it 15 build up.... 15min normal alt charging judging by dash meter. Yesterday and again today; after 4 hours of truck sitting at work... then driving back home 30min.. Alt./volt dash meter showed a typical good volts/alt output in about 5 min of driving. and at home next day the 12v side is showing approx 95% charge and 24v side 100%.

This has been my observation. I have brought back to life, any number of Batteries. Lots of the ones I tried it on, just were too far gone. I just built a cell phone charging station using a 100 AH batter that would not take a charge, and everyone was going to toss it. 4-5 days on desulfate mode, and that battery works like a charm. Saved me several hundred euros by taking the time to do the job right.

 

[coachgeo]

Should be top and bottom where large alt and battery leads attach. The load terms should be the middle pair with only one large lead on each terminal. Should also be able to measure at batt terminals... unless you have really bad connections between alt and batts, should not have significant drop with moderate load applied.

hour ago.

when first started truck....
> Dash at approx. 24-25v.
> At batts with hand volt meter..... 25.3v at 24v pos lug and and 24v neg lug across the whole bank of four batts.
> 12v bank at 12.7v
> Same result at 24v post batt lug to chassis ground.

after about 15? min with truck running (with about a 10min break while quick grab of groceries)
> Dash at approx 26-28v
> 24v across whole bank and as well with Neg on chassis ground .. with hand volt meter got 28.3v (24v side of alt obviously now working)
> 12v bank batt.... 14+v (14v side of alt obviously now working)

Delay in why it takes to get alt to kick on.. and how the hell desulfating has anything to do with that???? a mystery.

Note- all the batts are still connected together OEM when doing all this charging, desulfating, taking volt readings.

but swear it took less time today before the alt. kicked on.... though it does not make since this would be related to doing more de-sulfating.. Maybe the de-sulfatingis back feeding thru truck a little and breaking up corrosion in a wire???....

 

[Ronmar]

Battery AH capacity is a factor of the volume of electrolyte. A battery with 1 gallon of electrolyte and 100 sq/in of plate surface area has the same AH capacity as a battery with 1 gal of electrolyte and 1000 sq/in of plate surface.

Plate surface area determines current capacity(both in and out). The larger the plate surface area the faster the battery can convert ions to electrons, and the larger an electrical load it can support before the voltage starts to fall off. This is how sulfation kills batteries, it makes the plate area smaller and smaller until it cannot support its normal working loads.

An issues with smart/automatic chargers, particularly with large batteries is that it can take time to convert sulfur back into solution. Most smart chargers dont look at time, they look at voltage. They will change stages and even cutoff completely at particular voltages depending on their programming. Then they will set until the voltage drops low enough to re-engage the charge. Large batts with large volumes of electrolyte can develop a surface charge(dense electrolyte nearer the plates) while much of the solution is in a weaker state. It takes time for the dense solution to diffuse throughout the electrolyte volume. So the automated chargers can cutoff before the battery is actually fully charged. Sulfation makes things worse for auto chargers as with reduced plate area, there are larger volumes of uncharged electrolyte and it takes longer to diffuse. This fools the charger into thinking the battery is charged, and the charger to cutoff quicker and cycle on and off repeatedly. Many will even call the battery bad if it sees these short cycles.

When you run the pulser on it, it doesn’t cutoff, and puts energy steadily into the battery and continues to replenish the electrolyte near the plates as the sulfur diffuses out to the rest of the electrolyte. Because of this you can probably reach a higher state of charge than a typical auto charger will which may be what Geo is experiencing. A fixed voltage float charger would probably have the same results in Geo’s case. In wet cells there is actually a charge mode called “equalize” this is a short duration higher voltage over charge that actually causes the electrolyte to bubble. This stirs the electrolyte as these bubbles rise toward the top and pull electrolyte along with them… stirs and equalizes the solution. Obviously not applicable to gell cells.

Your alt looks like it is capable of making rated voltage when the load is low enough, and fully charging the batteries is giving you this opportunity. You can hook up a voltmeter to the two small terminals on your instrument shunt to get an idea how much current is in play to or from the batteries. Most digital test meters have a milivolt scale. Every .001V across the small terminals = 1Amp being pulled thru the shunt...

 

[coachgeo]

...

Your alt looks like it is capable of making rated voltage when the load is low enough, and fully charging the batteries is giving you this opportunity. You can hook up a voltmeter to the two small terminals on your instrument shunt to get an idea how much current is in play to or from the batteries. Most digital test meters have a milivolt scale. Every .001V across the small terminals = 1Amp being pulled thru the shunt...

That is a good idea. My hand held should do this. maybe I can run wires thru window back to it while driving .. otherwise... spare is off right now so will check when idling after work sat.

 

[Csm Davis]

Coachgeo about every 6 months swap the batteries around so they get equal exercise. Also the desulfation does work, you might want to get a solargizer like the military uses, the small panel solargizer won't keep the batteries topped off but will keep them in good condition.

 

[coachgeo]

Coachgeo about every 6 months swap the batteries around so they get equal exercise. Also the desulfation does work, you might want to get a solargizer like the military uses, the small panel solargizer won't keep the batteries topped off but will keep them in good condition.

like the rotate idea

below is ideas for parts on building your own solargizer for 1/3 to 1/2 cost of the military ones. (Charge, maintain, desulfate) Some of the links might not be good anymore cause did this few years ago.. but the list items will help someone garner ideas

Amazon.com - Idea Lists

Idea Lists created by

www.amazon.com

 

[AndyT]

Battery AH capacity is a factor of the volume of electrolyte. A battery with 1 gallon of electrolyte and 100 sq/in of plate surface area has the same AH capacity as a battery with 1 gal of electrolyte and 1000 sq/in of plate surface.

Plate surface area determines current capacity(both in and out). The larger the plate surface area the faster the battery can convert ions to electrons, and the larger an electrical load it can support before the voltage starts to fall off. This is how sulfation kills batteries, it makes the plate area smaller and smaller until it cannot support its normal working loads.

An issues with smart/automatic chargers, particularly with large batteries is that it can take time to convert sulfur back into solution. Most smart chargers dont look at time, they look at voltage. They will change stages and even cutoff completely at particular voltages depending on their programming. Then they will set until the voltage drops low enough to re-engage the charge. Large batts with large volumes of electrolyte can develop a surface charge(dense electrolyte nearer the plates) while much of the solution is in a weaker state. It takes time for the dense solution to diffuse throughout the electrolyte volume. So the automated chargers can cutoff before the battery is actually fully charged. Sulfation makes things worse for auto chargers as with reduced plate area, there are larger volumes of uncharged electrolyte and it takes longer to diffuse. This fools the charger into thinking the battery is charged, and the charger to cutoff quicker and cycle on and off repeatedly. Many will even call the battery bad if it sees these short cycles.

When you run the pulser on it, it doesn’t cutoff, and puts energy steadily into the battery and continues to replenish the electrolyte near the plates as the sulfur diffuses out to the rest of the electrolyte. Because of this you can probably reach a higher state of charge than a typical auto charger will which may be what Geo is experiencing. A fixed voltage float charger would probably have the same results in Geo’s case. In wet cells there is actually a charge mode called “equalize” this is a short duration higher voltage over charge that actually causes the electrolyte to bubble. This stirs the electrolyte as these bubbles rise toward the top and pull electrolyte along with them… stirs and equalizes the solution. Obviously not applicable to gell cells.

Your alt looks like it is capable of making rated voltage when the load is low enough, and fully charging the batteries is giving you this opportunity. You can hook up a voltmeter to the two small terminals on your instrument shunt to get an idea how much current is in play to or from the batteries. Most digital test meters have a milivolt scale. Every .001V across the small terminals = 1Amp being pulled thru the shunt...

I just bought 2 new batteries for the 5T and knew (strong theory) this was the issue w my old batteries (about 4yrs old used probably total of 20times). But.... it had to be done. I will remember this for next time.

 

[Ronmar]

Round up a battery pile load tester. Start the truck, and if you have 14.1/28.2 at the alt, apply ~60-80A of load across 24v at the battery. Do you still have 14.1/28.2 at the alt? You should still have somerhing close...

I havnt run this test but I will this weekend and tell you what my alt delivers under load...

Got a break in the rain showers long enough to run a load test. Needed to run the truck anyway

Every alt I have ever worked with had a spec of +/- 0.5V. I have always assumed that to include/apply up to full load/output, and that has always been my experience.

Setup:
I no longer have a polarity protection device or shunt on my truck. The Ground lead goes directly from battery to the starter motor housing and on to the frame via the OEM braided strap. I am still running the N-1506 100A alternator. The 24V lead goes from Battery to starter solenoid + terminal and from there to alternator 24 output. The 12v lead connects directly from 12V alt terminal to battery 12.

I have a digital volt meter in my dash hardwired directly to the alternator 12 and 24v output terminals using the old STE wiring that went that way.
At idle today with charged batteries, that meter read 14.0/28.0.

With a carbon pile load tester connected across the ground and 24V battery terminals and dialed up to 100A, at idle I got 13.8V and 27.6V on the dash meter.
At around 1/2 throttle(1600-1800RPM?) I saw 13.9V and 28V…

So idle drop within the 0.5V I was expecting to see(could really hear it pull down the engine though), and no appreciable drop at higher RPM @100A…

YMMV…

 

[87cr250r]

I had the opportunity(?) to cut open a week 8D battery. I found the plates bad mostly broken apart and laying in the bottom of the battery. I don't think a charger can fix this.

 

[Ronmar]

I had the opportunity(?) to cut open a week 8D battery. I found the plates bad mostly broken apart and laying in the bottom of the battery. I don't think a charger can fix this.

And that is another battery failure mode. You know the difference between a 36 month battery and a 48 month battery? It is the depth of the battery sump under the plates where the flakes and scale from the plates collect. This scale builds up until it shorts the plates…

So for all you folks that say pulsers definitely work, have you ever run 13.1v DC float chargers? My experience is probably a little more unique than most, i have had many remote standby generator sets to maintain over the past several decades. These systems had controllers that ran them once a week and sat the rest of the time untill called on to replace commercial power. When not running they had power supplies that provided ~13.1v floating the batteries full time And powering their control panels waiting fir commercial to drop the load. The batteries lasted a very long time. In fact the only time we usually had to replace one was when a power supply failed, as the controller would pull them to a low state of charge and they would set there and sulfate until we showed up for routine or preventative maintenance…

low state of charge is the biggest killer of batteries, and the lower the state, the faster it occurs.

your experience says they work, but my experience says that other things also work. And my experiences not being able to recover already heavily sulfated batteries with a pulser make me think that your positive experiences using them as a maintainer are as much because you are putting energy into a battery at rest, as they are about that pulsed energy restoring sulfur scale. Adding ANY energy is a good thing to help maintain a higher state of charge on a resting battery...

 

[Csm Davis]

I had the opportunity(?) to cut open a week 8D battery. I found the plates bad mostly broken apart and laying in the bottom of the battery. I don't think a charger can fix this.

The solargizer that the military and I use and recommend keeps the batteries healthy from the start and aren't neant to revive old batteries. I do have a charger that has this function and about 50% of the time maybe less it will help old batteries.

 

[Csm Davis]

And that is another battery failure mode. You know the difference between a 36 month battery and a 48 month battery? It is the depth of the battery sump under the plates where the flakes and scale from the plates collect. This scale builds up until it shorts the plates…

So for all you folks that say pulsers definitely work, have you ever run 13.1v DC float chargers? My experience is probably a little more unique than most, i have had many remote standby generator sets to maintain over the past several decades. These systems had controllers that ran them once a week and sat the rest of the time untill called on to replace commercial power. When not running they had power supplies that provided ~13.1v floating the batteries full time And powering their control panels waiting fir commercial to drop the load. The batteries lasted a very long time. In fact the only time we usually had to replace one was when a power supply failed, as the controller would pull them to a low state of charge and they would set there and sulfate until we showed up for routine or preventative maintenance…

low state of charge is the biggest killer of batteries, and the lower the state, the faster it occurs.

your experience says they work, but my experience says that other things also work. And my experiences not being able to recover already heavily sulfated batteries with a pulser make me think that your positive experiences using them as a maintainer are as much because you are putting energy into a battery at rest, as they are about that pulsed energy restoring sulfur scale. Adding ANY energy is a good thing to help maintain a higher state of charge on a resting battery...

I do agree with keeping the batteries fully charged and full of electrolyte but also desulfated. I have seen and have pulled 10 year old batteries out of military trucks that have had solargizers on them and they would take a charge and work just fine. I found a cab that we cut off of a truck years ago that we somehow missed pulling the batteries out of and as we were pulling them to sell for scrap I noticed that they had solargizers hooked up. I told my guy to take that set to the shop. We hooked a regular charger to them and they came back to a good usable state of charge! I have seen this many times on the thousands of trucks we moved off of Camp Shelby. I think that you might could get more life out of most lead acid batteries if they had the bigger panel solargizers that charge and desulfate and a automatic watering system, best of all worlds. Haven't gotten around to testing but wouldn't hurt to try, would have saved me thousands by now if I would spend a little more time maintaining my stuff! Love the discussion guys!

 

[Ronmar]

Yea i have never played with a solargizer, but routinely get more than 10 years out of my batteries as I did with the generator sets I maintained. I have a tractor battery closing in on 17 years now(original battery on the tractor purchased new in 06). Thought I had an issue with it this winter(slow crank), but a different battery gave the same performance. come to find out it was dirty starter brushes and commutator. Cleaned out the starter and am back to that original battery spinning like a champ… everything that is not a daily driver gets a float charger power supply… a formula that has served me well…