Deuce Forum = A Joke!

[73m819]

Mike, well done

 

[CCATLETT1984]

3. I am a very accomplished researcher, particularly online. HOWEVER there have been times where I needed an answer, but I did not know what the QUESTION was. I hope that makes sense. If you have read The Hitchhikers Guide you know where I am coming from. So what does that mean? It means that a "Use the search function" response to a question may be useless. The person who asked may have searched but was unable to find the answer. If a repeated question vexes you - IGNORE IT and move on!

4. Personally I find the links to the TMs on this site impossible. I have spent A LOT of effort searching and downloading the TMs in the "Resource" section to find what I am looking for . . . . I always appreciate a DIRECT LINK to the TM from another member that answers the question. A "see the - 30" post is really useless. If you know what a "-30 TM" is, you really do not need to read it. That is really my only suggestion for improvement . . . . . maybe cluster the TM that are the "must reads" into a special compendium?

In regards to #3 (I have read the complete hitchhiker's guide series) Many new guys do fall into this catagory.

#4- This is one of my pet pev's. Recovery4x4 (he's in charge of the TM's) and I have discussed a few different options. We think we have a layout that is MUCH more user friendly, but it will take some time to be realized. In the meantime, I suggest doing what i did for the CUCV forum, leave a post at the top of the forum with the hard links to the relevant TM's (I named them to be helpful). Kenny did this for the deuce forum and it seems to have worked well there.

 

[OPCOM]

This is not an online FAQ or outsourced heldesk. Searching is not always optimal because the out of the box system intent was never to be used primarily as a FAQ. Noob might for example think he's got a problem with the oil pump, but what happens when that is searched for? Many many posts or topics, some of which he might not understand and some that pertain to things entirely not having to do with figuring out if the oil pump is OK. This is not a complaint on the system.

So the Noobs sometimes ask. I have no objection to it. I highly favor ancient thread re-use/resurrection if a thread is closely aligned with the request and it should be encouraged, but it is not obligatory and the thread best suited for reuse might not be easily found, causing contextual convolution when a less-suited thread gets resurrected and appended to.

Having worked at the ergonomics architecture level with expert systems designed to be used with a KB (knowledge base) by topic-agnostic heldesk workers at Sony, I submit that consolidation by itself would only reduce the number of threads from "a lot" to "still too many". It would not bring more order, only a less granular view of what some could call an acceptable level of chaos. In the absence of an FAQ-regenerating front end, I prefer granularity. I'm not sure the relatively small amount of information here could be worth the cost of an expert system. That is not a complaint either. Sony had/has petabytes of data to be given to customers and will/did walk you through diagnosing and tech-level repairing your equipment a step at a time, if you know/knew the right number to call. (don't ask, it has been >8 years)

A passive searchable FAQ based on FAQ topic names at the top of a hierarchy of links to individual topics could do it, but the task, especially the remediation now, would be overwhelming because every single message would have to be checked by a MV-knowledgeable human not only for subject name correctness but discussion flow correctness to determine where its link(s) should go in the many subject and sub-subject pages of the FAQ.

Just a guess it would take a man-year (based on 20 minutes for each of apparently approximately 26200 topics) and then likely 4-5 man hours a day to keep it updated and correct as every new topic would have to be added.

In the Sony system, a professional team works daily at it. Or did. I'm not sure if it is still around as the cost to give expert answers on demand by phone or www for free 24x7 was obscene and it required an entire 3 story building, but that was Sony. And it still used 100+ KB operators. once Mr. Morita died, the company was ruined by its own stickpickly lawyers and bean-scrabbling accountants. I bet that facility is gone. Global leadership in customer service excellence costs money.

Here, we are the KB operators and there's no expert system, so we have that job in wetware. It seems agreeable and satisfactory. If I'm full of BS then say so but I have no objection to new topics on old subjects if that's what a person wants to do. It's an administrators' prerogative and your suggestion to take action on it should certainly be considered by the grand poobah. I respect your opinion and won't oppose it, only comment from experience with systems. I see another alike system with 160K+ topics and 204 logged in users as of now so there should be no danger of hitting a limit yet except possibly for the spindles.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Just trying to lighten things up Clinto, people getting to wound over an evolving Forum.BC

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Perhaps it's just me but I've always found the search function difficult.

I use it when I can but I'm guilty of asking questions.

I always try to repay the favor of people answering my (sometimes) silly questions by making it a point to share the histories of my projects and what I've learned. Personally, I think that is what this forum is all about.

 

[rhinomike]

wow alot of us have to much time on our hands
help the guy out or at least lead him in the right direction, this site is here to inform ANYONE about the MV hobby, spend your energy and time to yourself or the good of world
mike linebaugh

 

[rhinomike]

P.S.
Thanks for time spent on 99% of the thoughts on this thread, My previous response did not include the persons with positive feed back. Thank you Steel Soldiers, do you know HOW much more I know about MV's than I did 6 months ago? more than I could have without SS

 

[bottleworks]

Fantastic response! 26 replies before I could even check back in... Some on topic, some having nothing to do with the issue posted. But that's ok.



Let's take a look at what I wrote in two parts....

Part 1:

There is now more "Stickys" at the top then there are active topics. How about consolidating some and thin out the unneeded ones.

Sorry, I should have said "There are...", not "is".
Let's go ahead and take a look a the screen shot attached to this post. There are 11 stickies attached at the top of the Deuce forum. With the default forum display, that allows 9 active posts to be displayed on the first page. This is server-side, not screen resolution.

Sticky #1:
"Where to purchase NEW in-tank fuel pumps and parts."
Great post. Post questions looking for a replacement pump. It would be helpful to merge in the post regarding the "shims" that can fall out of the pump. It would be a shame to have someone replace their pump when they only needed to safety wire the shim pack back in place.

Sticky #2:
DUECE STARTER CAN SELF DESTRUCT IF TESTED WITHOUT LOAD
Informative. Most will bench test a used starter before installing. It would appear, under certain circumstances that will bite you in the behind. However, this would be good fit in the Deuce Tips and Tricks sticky. It is a tip.

Sticky #3:
Brake Inspections and Warning for Older Deuces
Crucial. This needs to remain a sticky. The Airpack Rebuild Warning sticky should be merged into this sticky.

Sticky #4:
Deuce TMs
Everyone should have a copy of the manuals and this sticky helps keep down the questions of "what manuals do I need?".

Sticky #5:
M35A2 Winch Operations
This post was make because a new owner tried to use their new winch without reading the manuals. That lack of training caused equipment damage and could have cost someone's life. I don't feel this should be a sticky because all that information is directly from the operator manual and is easily available.

Sticky #6:
"GREAT LIST " for picking up your Deuce!
This is a prime example of what I am suggesting. The information is consolidated into one post for good things to being and the prep work/effort when picking up a truck. A great sticky.

Sticky #7:
Decoding the Deuce...What does your VIN tell you ?
Another good sticky. Everyone wants to know as much about their truck(s) as they can. This is a good source to help you in that effort.

Sticky #8:
The Skinny on 24087
Good info for those who are painting to an era spec or what not. However, I feel this should be a sticky in the Paint and Bodywork section of this web site.

Sticky #9:
Airpack Rebuild Warning.
Once again, crucial info. But this needs to be in a single brake system sticky. It should be merged into the Brake Inspections and Warning for Older Deuces sticky.

Sticky #10:
Deuce Tips and Tricks
Tip and tricks are really a big part of automotive communities like this one. Things like "I have noticed XYZ failing because ZUA falls out of adjustment. It's best to adjust it to..." is great example of what you won't find in a manual. This sticky need to stay.

Sticky #11:
Sprag Adjustment
The sprag xfer case is a big enough issue that it's well worth having a sticky dedicated to it.


I believe that would cut the stickys down to 7 and add additional information at the same time.


I will make a separate post on "part 2".

 

[bottleworks]

Ah, Part 2a:

The noobs need to learn how to search.

Here's an example:
How much is your Deuce's Insurance

Deuce insurance questions are posted every week or two. A quick search of "insurance" in the Deuce Forum yields results.

Once of the best things about this place isn't the ease of asking questions and getting answers. It's that many, many of the questions have been already answered by one of the very knowledgeable members here. This site is a major data base of information - You just have to search it out.

I will come up with questions all the time, but before I even consider posting, I take my time as a responsible poster and search, search, search. If I can't find anything, I will then make a post. It seems Google can also search this site well.


Part2b:

They shouldn't need to be hand fed.

Yea, 100% true. If you keep catching fish and hand feeding, they will never learn how to fish.


Responding to replies...

I don't know I think it is something called "TEAMWORK!!!"

Part of team work is teaching others and coming together to improve the environment. That's what my post is all about. Did you miss that?

BUT if you must continue to run down the other members, old or new, you may wish to retire to your cave or monastic cell, untill the mood passes......

Can you provide an example of me running down any members? I am not sure you will find any.

I beleive it is often the "human" touch albeit in a virtual sense that is more satisfying then just getting the machine to regurgatate (spelling) old data.

That is a good point and I agree.


I will leave the politics related replies out (other then changing my avatar).


Those may notice that when some one asks a question, I may end up searching and posting the link to the result. Or searching Saturn Surp, or ODI to lead them to a source for the replacement part they are looking for. This is in-part enabling, but also hope they they will try the same thing next time they have a similar situation. It all is about teamwork, but also growing the teams skill set.

 

[Bill W]

BW
Does this mean your gonna take Mangus's offer and volunteer your time & skills to get this site up and running to YOUR spec's??

 

[m35a2kevin]

opcorn:

 

[sprucemt]

Quite frankly... I agree.

I now nominate Bottleworks to create a 'Deuce FAQ' post, that can be made a sticky. In this post, he can reference all the current stickies, (as well as other 'FAQ' type material).

I second the motion. All in favor, say aye.

 

[badgmc56]

Did anyone stop to think the reason so many new guys ask a lot of questions is they are NEW to the site and want to become a part of it. I am a Master Auto Tech and have been for many years. I have access to countless manuals and information but sometimes you just would like to talk to someone who has already done what you are attempting to venture into! Case in point, my newly rebuilt hydromatic tranny that had no high-range. Majortom helped me out a great deal. I had an idea of what might be wrong and he confimed it so I was able to fix it without pulling the tranny. If some of us feel that it is a burden to answer the same questions over, then let someone else who does not do it. No one is forcing anyone to answer anything if you have a problem with it. I personally like the question-answer way of doing things even if it has been covered before. Someone else always chimes in with a different trick or way to attack a problem. Lets get back to business!

 

[Recovry4x4]

Wow, I leave for a day and you guys wear out the keyboards. Since most of the brake stickys were from me, I'll combine them into a singe "Brake" topic.
HTH

 

[clinto]

Boy, everybody jumps Bottleworks.

Consider this:

When there is constant repetition of the same topics, over and over again, it creates multiple problems.

First, the knowledgeable folks start replying in shorter, less nuanced fashion. Instead of an in-depth answer, you get a short, to the point reply that may leave out important details.

Second, when a person does a search, instead of finding 2 or 3 really complete threads with tons of answer, they get a couple dozen threads with 3 or 4 answers. Don't believe me? Go do a search for "EUC", "sprag", etc. How frustrating is it to do a search and get 150 threads? You gonna read all 150?

Third, those short threads do not promote the open discussion of theories............. thus reducing the amount of information related to the subject getting out there for all of us to benefit from.

Those are the big ones..................................... and there is nothing wrong with telling people (politely) that they need to search.

And Bottlework's politics don't have anything to do with this thread. He didn't insult anyone's else's beliefs............ You people keep bringing politics (that's everybody) into this site, you will get it so polarized that everyone will hate everyone else and we'll go the way of the mil-veh mailing list. It's your call.

 

[Somemedic]

While BW did come off as a smug turd in the beginning and the thread's post was rough, he did explain what it was he meant and even mapped it out in a logical, methodical fashion that made sense. While he may have not taken into account that while us "Fleet Adm", "Sgt Mjs", and "Colonels" have had to spend several man hrs familiarizing ourselves with what info is where the new guys arent there yet. If he doesnt decide to redo the stickies in the deuce section it should still be done. If he does do it make him a junior mod fleet czar or whatever.

I would also like to mention that the search feature here aint like a refined google-esque engine. I can usually figure out how to find something while looking on google in just a few searches and have even left the site to search google and been redirected back to a SS thread. While the info that CAN be found here is of great use its not like awell thought out encyclopedia for MV's. You really do have to sift through some off topic and useless info to get to what you need. People tend to be more effeicient (read: lazy) or sometimes are stranded on the side of the road and dont have alot of time to sift thru 200 threads where the word "fuel pump" appears.

Some things to ponder while u stare into the monitor in ur underwear drinkin coffee this morn

 

[alphadeltaromeo]

I think instead of saying that the forum is a joke, which I don't believe it is...the method by which one makes a point could be greatly refined. Such as...

"I'd like to make a suggestion as to refine, enhance the deuce forum...and all the rest for the matter. What I'm going to propose is...

1. blah blah blah
2. more blah blah blah

etc."

It's the method of the message that is lacking grace

 

[Westech]

opcorn:

O boy here come WWIII

 

[kendelrio]

I am a very accomplished researcher, particularly online. HOWEVER there have been times where I needed an answer, but I did not know what the QUESTION was. I hope that makes sense. If you have read The Hitchhikers Guide you know where I am coming from. So what does that mean? It means that a "Use the search function" response to a question may be useless. The person who asked may have searched but was unable to find the answer. If a repeated question vexes you - IGNORE IT and move on!

As a noob to M/V's and S/S but NOT computers, I too am frustrated at times by the search function. I have posted questions only to get the "Use the search function". While that would seem the logical thing to do, at the time, I was on the side of the road and using my cell phone to access the site to find knowledge to get me moving again. While the site is great on a full screen, it's not so great on a 2"x2" screen, and tring to FIND the search function, much less use it, while stranded is to say the least, a small exercise in frustration.

Let the noobs ask, the last time I checked, all computers come with a scroll function (mine can scroll by line or page....... check your computer, I bet it can too...)

All in all, get over yourself. Your time isn't SO valuable you can't spend an extra 3 seconds scrolling past the stickies.

And yes, I woke up on the wrong side of a hurricane, was without power and water for 4 days and am grumpy.

 

[kendelrio]

I highly favor ancient thread re-use/resurrection if a thread is closely aligned with the request and it should be encouraged, but it is not obligatory and the thread best suited for reuse might not be easily found, causing contextual convolution when a less-suited thread gets resurrected and appended to.

Having worked at the ergonomics architecture level with expert systems designed to be used with a KB (knowledge base) by topic-agnostic heldesk workers at Sony, I submit that consolidation by itself would only reduce the number of threads from "a lot" to "still too many". It would not bring more order, only a less granular view of what some could call an acceptable level of chaos. In the absence of an FAQ-regenerating front end, I prefer granularity. I'm not sure the relatively small amount of information here could be worth the cost of an expert system. That is not a complaint either. Sony had/has petabytes of data to be given to customers and will/did walk you through diagnosing and tech-level repairing your equipment a step at a time, if you know/knew the right number to call. (don't ask, it has been >8 years)

Wow