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Deuce won't start

eddiec

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Location
Southeast mo
here is the deal. yup, it is in time. it is getting fuel to the pump, but i don't think it is getting enough pressure to the injectors. gonna check that one day this week. just turn it up a flat or 2, or put in a shim? i know someone out there knows, but it aint me. any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Recovry4x4

LLM/Member 785
Super Moderator
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GA Mountains
This is not my words, this came to me a while back from deuce guru David Doyle. Covers a lot of stuff in plain english that you cant wring out of the TMs. Again, thanks go to author and my friend, David Doyle


In the center of the top of the hydraulic head of the pump is a plug, it is
surrounded by the fuel distribution lines. Remove the plug. Stand a soft
wood stick up in the hole, and turn engine over while watching stick. The
stick should hop and down, but since you are having a no start condition, it
probably won't (If it does, we have other issues to discuss). Remove stick,
and spray solvent and penetrant in this hole.
Take out two screws and remove the engine shut off cover and gasket. Verify
that the cable from it to handle on dash moves freely.
The remove the two screws you have just exposed that hold on the Control Unit
Retainer (a sorta U-shaped bracket)...if I remember correctly these screws
are safety wired.
Remove the Control Unit Retainer, then slide out the fuel control unit
assembly. Take care that the small, precisely made, friction fit, T shaped
piece of metal on the inner end of the shaft doesn't get lost. It is the
plunger sleeve pin, and that is what all this is about.
Apply generous amounts of solvent, penetrating oil, etc., to make sure all
these pieces are free to move. Once free, spray with lube.
Reassemble fuel control unit into injection pump, being sure to orient the
plunger sleeve pin properly, it should all slide together smoothly and
precisely, like reassembling a gun. If you think you need to force
something, then you have put something together wrong.
As I recall, this fuel control unit lever rocks back and forth when the motor
is turning over, but beware, if you can see this, that means that the shut
off is disconnected, so don't just try this for giggles.
Now, assuming that the plunger on top didn't move, use a brass or similar
soft punch, as close in size to the hole on top of
hydraulic head, rap the plunger a time or two. Beware, too much force will cause a spring clip on the other end of the shaft to disconnect, and the plunger button to fall off.
Repeat test with stick.
You may have to repeat the penetrating oil/solvent/pecking/stick test process
several times before the plunger moves freely.
The above steps 90% of the time solves this problem. Occasionally however
the delivery valve sticks. This is access by removing a plug in the SIDE of
the hydraulic head. Usually this plug is funny looking (12 points), older
engines this plug is hex shaped.
Beware, with the way the pump is oriented in the truck, the delivery valve
and its spring will want to fall out onto the ground, chassis,
where ever....this would not be good as these delivery valves are precisely
matched to the hydraulic heads. So you won't replace just this tiny valve,
but rather the entire, expensive hydraulic head.
Using aerosol solvent/penetrating oil, make sure that the delivery valve is
not sticking.
Reassemble all the things we have discussed.
Truck should now start. However, any time I have fooled with the injection
pump, or a truck that has not been started in a while, I prefer to remove the
air intake mushroom, and have a helper stand by with steel plate or piece of
plywood to shut off air flow in the event the engine tries to run away, or
the shut off won't shut down.


To help with this, for those that don't understand how the injection pump works, I will cover the operation of the pump.
The round part of the pump where the fuel delivery lines are attached is called the hydraulic head. (Which by the way is an easily replaceable part, and is often found on eBay).
Due to the extremely high pressures developed inside the injection system, there are essentially no gaskets (and very few o-rings) used. Extremely close tolerences are relied upon to keep it from leaking, and the head itself is a machined from a single piece of metal.
The 6 small allen head screws perpendicular to the outer surface of the head seal off the outer ends of the fuel passages. (a result of the machining operation)
These passages intersect passages bored down from the ports where the injector lines are attached.
Your foot, or other throttle, moves a lever on the outside of the pump. This slides a sleeve up (or down, when throttle is closed) inside the center of the head (big hex headed plug nestled amongst injector lines covers all this). The sleeve movement up or down covers and uncovers ports in the head which act as valves regulating the amount of fuel admitted. The higher the sleeve is raised, the more fuel is delivered. Inside that sleeve is a sort of dogbone shaped plunger. This plunger is the actual fuel pump, the sleeve is the metering device. In the pumping action described above, the fuel is being pumped on the top of the plunger. It flows from there under high pressure, past the fuel delivery valve (a glorified check valve, accessed through a plug screwed into the side of the head, sometimes the plug is hex shaped, but usually 16 pointed.) This valve is NOT replaceable. From there, it flows into the knecked down central part of the plunger. There is a slot machined in the plunger. The plunger is rotat
ed by a gear drive located in the large lower portion of the fuel injection pump. This slot is then aligned, by the rotation of the plunger, with the fuel delivery passages mentioned so many words ago (with the six allen screws blanking them off). The fuel then travels through the lines to the injector nozzles.
 

Avops

New member
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Location
Montrose, MI
RE: no start 465 engine

I'm hoping this is the right spot to post this question.....

We have a Duece that will not start unless coaxed with a shot of ether. Have went through many threads here and found all kinds of useful information, BUT, I have been unable to find where the fuel pressure test point would be for the IP boost pump, (the one that should have about 70 psi).

Actually, if someone could point me in the right direction for all the fuel pressure test points, it would be greatly appreciaated!

Engine has the bosch rotary IP, and onece started will idle if kept above 1000 rpm, also seems to have good acceleration. Getting really frustrated trying to find the problem.

Thanks
 

gimpyrobb

dumpsterlandingfromorbit!
27,785
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Location
Cincy Ohio
There is a bleeder on top of the secondary fuel filters(on the side of the motor). I'd screw in a psi gauge right there. Welcome to the site.
 
Make sure the slow-burn fuse above the lift pump didn't do a slow burn! Once you make sure the lift pump runs, make sure it's not sucking air through a bad hose inside the tank.
My deuce was a little hard starting untill I re-connected the lift pump. Why it was disconnected in the first place, I have no idea, but I found a few stupid things done that would seem to serve no purpose.
:driver:
 

Chuck76

Member
90
1
8
Location
Salisbury. NC
I have followed the above words of David Doyle, the stick jumped up and down so I reassembled. I then removed the plug to acess the delivery valve, only thing that came out was the spring. I took a small flat tip screw driver, and could turn ( in the bore) what I am gussing to be the actual valve. Should the valve fall out of the bore if its not sticking. I'm having the same starting issue as Avops. I've changed the fuel pump in the tank, all fuel filters, replaced the fuel line from the tank to the primary filter, to the IP, to the secondary filters, back to the inlet side of the HH. I bypassed the FDC. My problems started after clogging up the primary filter. The secondary filters and canisters were suprisingly clean , but were changed anyway. I took the injecktor line off of #6 and cranked the engine over...she was getting fuel there.
 

gimpyrobb

dumpsterlandingfromorbit!
27,785
748
113
Location
Cincy Ohio
I then removed the plug to access the delivery valve, only thing that came out was the spring. I took a small flat tip screw driver, and could turn ( in the bore) what I am guessing to be the actual valve.


Are you talking about the 12 point plug on the side of the hydraulic head? I think messing with that is BAD. Avops and I did some trouble shooting over the phone and I believe his plunger in the hydraulic head is bad. Did you make sure the shut off valve on the side of the HH is moving freely?
 

Chuck76

Member
90
1
8
Location
Salisbury. NC
I then removed the plug to access the delivery valve, only thing that came out was the spring. I took a small flat tip screw driver, and could turn ( in the bore) what I am guessing to be the actual valve.


Are you talking about the 12 point plug on the side of the hydraulic head? I think messing with that is BAD. Avops and I did some trouble shooting over the phone and I believe his plunger in the hydraulic head is bad. Did you make sure the shut off valve on the side of the HH is moving freely?
yep, the same 12 point plug. I removed the cover over the shut off valve, and the cable and valve seem to be moving freely. I'll mess with it again Sunday, if I dont take a day off from working on it... seems that it takes up all my free time...........
 

JamesM

New member
78
-1
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Location
Tampa/Boca Raton, Florida
I am having a similar issue with a deuce of mine. I already took the plug outand did the stick test and reassembled after it bobbed up and down and fuel spilled out. I removed the shut off cover and gasket and verified that everything was free-moving (it was). I took the thing held on with the screws and saftey wire out, cleaned it, and reassembled it. I took out the 12 point plug, cleaned, and reassembled it.

Now...I had a bad soft line (the one that comes out of the front of the IP or the HH or...not sure which...someone went a little too hard on tightening it and closed it over 60% of the way. I fixed this and now can get fuel to visibly creep up that line, but still nothing.

I can get her to run on ether but there still seems to be something else wrong...I feel like I have cranked it long enough to where any air that could have been in there should be out.

I should say that I blieve the ift pump is functional as I can here it running and returning back into the tank and I know I can get fuel all the way to the middle of the soft line (as verified by undoing the connector on the passenger side of the motor) and I know I can get fuel to dribble out of the 6th injector line.


Any and all input would be much appreciated as I've pretty much scratched my head raw aua

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Chuck76

Member
90
1
8
Location
Salisbury. NC
Still playing with the starting issue...with no luck. Ordered a HH in hopes that it will fix the issue.

I did drive her around Last Sunday, aprox 50 miles, and then again drove her to work and back Monday night ( another 50 miles). She runs out pretty good, but 40mph @ 2600 rpm makes for a long ride. Gonna have to break down and order a clutch and rear main before to long.
 
Still playing with the starting issue...with no luck. Ordered a HH in hopes that it will fix the issue.

I did drive her around Last Sunday, aprox 50 miles, and then again drove her to work and back Monday night ( another 50 miles). She runs out pretty good, but 40mph @ 2600 rpm makes for a long ride. Gonna have to break down and order a clutch and rear main before to long.
2600 RPMs @ 40 MPH? Did we forget to stomp the clutch, pull the TC into high range, and run through 4th and 5th gear again?
I'm not trying to be a wise-guy here, but something doesn't sound right.
:popcorn:
 
Wow! A worn out oil soaked clutch could be a problem! Especially when 53" tires should get a bobbed deuce up around 70 MPH. I'd say it's about time for a clutch job! (I know, Captain Obvious strikes again!) At least you've got 2 things on your side. Between the height of a deuce in the first place, plus the 53" Smart Car squashers, you won't need to jack up the truck. Also the divorced transfer case means you only have to take the short intermediate shaft and the trans it's self. Not a job I'd look forward to doing by myself, but I guess it could be worse. I wonder if there's an upgrade clutch set for deuces with giant tires. Might wanna look into that.
:popcorn:
 

Chuck76

Member
90
1
8
Location
Salisbury. NC
WHats the 2x4 for?
So i can sit the hood down without it latching.

Also, with 1 bad shoulder, its a pain to lift the hood. The 2x4 allows me to get both hands under the hood, to lift it, instead of unlatching with one hand and wiggling my other hand under the hood to start lifiting it....

NO, I dont ride down the road with the 2x4 sitting there.....
 
Last edited:

Chuck76

Member
90
1
8
Location
Salisbury. NC
Wow! A worn out oil soaked clutch could be a problem! Especially when 53" tires should get a bobbed deuce up around 70 MPH. I'd say it's about time for a clutch job! (I know, Captain Obvious strikes again!) At least you've got 2 things on your side. Between the height of a deuce in the first place, plus the 53" Smart Car squashers, you won't need to jack up the truck. Also the divorced transfer case means you only have to take the short intermediate shaft and the trans it's self. Not a job I'd look forward to doing by myself, but I guess it could be worse. I wonder if there's an upgrade clutch set for deuces with giant tires. Might wanna look into that.
:popcorn:
I hope the clutch isnt that bad of a job to do. I'm off work all next week and have a friend that said he's willing to lend me a hand.
 
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