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Direct vs. Gear Reduction Starter
- Thread starter tgtaylor64
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Hasdrubal
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This from another member ; starting ability of the 27mt verses the 28mt starter. Given good CCA batteries and cabling, the 27mt starter WILL turn over the engine MUCH faster than the 28MT will. The advantage to the 28MT will be that it will require LESS amperage to crank over the engine at a given speed, and is much easier on the batteries and cabling. The 27MT starter is heavy, and will wear down a good set of batteries in about 5 long cranks, but it REALLY spins the engine over fast. I love my 27MT starters on my pickups, because once the engine is somewhat warm all I have to do is "bump" the key and the engine is running, you CANNOT say that for the 28MT which takes time to get spinning.
And another member; the 28mt takes less power(better for winter) but I found that it wasn't always fast enough.
Regarding the solenoid ; the original 24 volt starters have silver alloy contacts in the solenoid to prevent them from welding together when closed. Most of the aftermarket stuff is built too cheaply to include these special contacts, and therefore are prone to the contacts welding together when you start your engine, causing the starter to not shut off and burning itself up.
Just rebuilt my 27MT for the second time ; http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?96119-Epic-27MT-Rebuild-quest Fairly straightforward and quality parts are readily available. Very heavy duty construction and extremely reliable, 8 years now. Spins over incredibly fast now. You could really just do it with the 3 bushings and a set of brushes.
And another member; the 28mt takes less power(better for winter) but I found that it wasn't always fast enough.
Regarding the solenoid ; the original 24 volt starters have silver alloy contacts in the solenoid to prevent them from welding together when closed. Most of the aftermarket stuff is built too cheaply to include these special contacts, and therefore are prone to the contacts welding together when you start your engine, causing the starter to not shut off and burning itself up.
Just rebuilt my 27MT for the second time ; http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?96119-Epic-27MT-Rebuild-quest Fairly straightforward and quality parts are readily available. Very heavy duty construction and extremely reliable, 8 years now. Spins over incredibly fast now. You could really just do it with the 3 bushings and a set of brushes.
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- Kingman AZ
UPDATE: I last bumped this thread back in Sept 2012 and it's now Jan 2013; When I first got my 1008 I did my best PM to insure that the famous/infamous starter problems I've read all about would not come to haunt me--- but they eventually did. By PM's I meant checking, cleaning, tightening all batt/starter connections and starter mounting bolts, new batts PLUS the Doghead upgrade. (Thank you DH!)
Though I did not drive the truck a whole lot for the first year things seemed to be ok, starter-wise. Then came the time to replace the harmonic balancer and it was about this time that the telltale WHIZZ-WHHIRRR non engagement starter thing began, thought it might be weak solenoid and told myself I'll replace that ASAP. As the balancer was getting done I decided to pull the old 27MT and discovered that not only were the stater bolts slightly loose, as were the bolts/nuts on the tailpiece bracket. Didn't think much of it at the time until I began to torque the balancer bolt and noticed the flex-plate had a bad spot, chewed up a little, then after further inspection I found THE REAL bad spot which was causing the non-engagement problem. I cursed that big old heavy 27MT and decided to replace it with 28MT. It took a few months searching but eventually I scored a brand new govt surplus CMT 28MT for about $280--- manufactured in Ohio, USA--- they're out there!
After the new flex-plate was finally installed and a bunch of other little details, it was time to fit up the 28MT and it was this that I base my opinion on: For a first time starter replacement I would highly recommend going with the 28MT simply because it is lighter and allows a much less cramped install, e. g. working space to connect batt leads plus ease in properly shimming the pinion/flex-plate gap, as well as getting to the front tailpiece bolts/nuts for proper torque. These factors I believe are part of the reason my 27 caused me such headache in the first place--- because of its girth as well as its weight; think this big heavy electrical motor torquing itself up and loosening its own mounting bolts, eventually causing the front tailpiece mounts to loosen, then one fine day it engages flex-plate at and off angle and BINGO--- time for new flex-plate. This was not fun.
Therefore I don't care how fast/slow the starter spins, a new starter will always spin/sound/feel better, to me the ease of replacement and ability to pull and inspect it are THE MOST important to prevent other starter related problems... long story short--- get the 28MT and worry less, be happy.
Peace & Happy New Year
Though I did not drive the truck a whole lot for the first year things seemed to be ok, starter-wise. Then came the time to replace the harmonic balancer and it was about this time that the telltale WHIZZ-WHHIRRR non engagement starter thing began, thought it might be weak solenoid and told myself I'll replace that ASAP. As the balancer was getting done I decided to pull the old 27MT and discovered that not only were the stater bolts slightly loose, as were the bolts/nuts on the tailpiece bracket. Didn't think much of it at the time until I began to torque the balancer bolt and noticed the flex-plate had a bad spot, chewed up a little, then after further inspection I found THE REAL bad spot which was causing the non-engagement problem. I cursed that big old heavy 27MT and decided to replace it with 28MT. It took a few months searching but eventually I scored a brand new govt surplus CMT 28MT for about $280--- manufactured in Ohio, USA--- they're out there!
After the new flex-plate was finally installed and a bunch of other little details, it was time to fit up the 28MT and it was this that I base my opinion on: For a first time starter replacement I would highly recommend going with the 28MT simply because it is lighter and allows a much less cramped install, e. g. working space to connect batt leads plus ease in properly shimming the pinion/flex-plate gap, as well as getting to the front tailpiece bolts/nuts for proper torque. These factors I believe are part of the reason my 27 caused me such headache in the first place--- because of its girth as well as its weight; think this big heavy electrical motor torquing itself up and loosening its own mounting bolts, eventually causing the front tailpiece mounts to loosen, then one fine day it engages flex-plate at and off angle and BINGO--- time for new flex-plate. This was not fun.
Therefore I don't care how fast/slow the starter spins, a new starter will always spin/sound/feel better, to me the ease of replacement and ability to pull and inspect it are THE MOST important to prevent other starter related problems... long story short--- get the 28MT and worry less, be happy.
Peace & Happy New Year
trooper632
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- Utopia, TX
which starter is the smaller less heavy one
Hasdrubal
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Heres an install tip for the 27MT, obviously if you have the support braces the passenger side must be removed. Take a 8-12" 2 by 4, when you lift the starter up but still below the mounting height, you slip the 2 by 4 underneath and it rests on the leaf spring. The starter is now supported, rotate it until you can see the solenoid connections on the inside between the starter and oil pan. A trouble light is mandatory. Then connect your leads, I find that this position is maximum extension for the small solenoid lead. Once done, simply rotate, lift up into place and install your starter bolts then the back brace.
To address the issues some have. Its too heavy,,what? Its only 30 pounds, an old adage from a Sgt Major comes to mind here..Man up, Nancy! As for needing to shim the starter, well mine's an 86 so its a non-issue, but I would think that if you removed your starter and there were shims that you could just use the same amount of shims. I have shimmed other peoples starters before, never seemed to be particularly difficult. As for removing the starter for inspection..inspect what? are you disassembling it to check bushing and brush wear? If not, theres no reason to remove it. Mines been in for 6 years, when its time for a rebuild you'll be notified by the slower cranking revolutions.
Starter bolts coming loose. I re-used my starter bolts last time( because I didn't know any better) No loctite and no torque wrench, just done by hand feel. They haven't come loose. The starter brace nut that tightens up to the assembly stud does have to be very secure, mine showed very minor movement on the brace slot, but again with the lock nut tight it still held. Didn't need to torque this either. This nut is one thing I temporarily would check every now and then. A regular wrench or 1'4" drive socket works just fine. To sum it up, no, the 27MT does not torque itself loose causing the bolts to loosen and the front brace also. If it does ...It's you and or your install procedures. I consulted a couple of CUCV guys up here. They also supported this conclusion.
I end with this quote from anotheer 6.2 forum ; The reason GM went to the gear reduction was cost savings and thats it. Not because they were better. Heavy copper wound starters cost BUCKS $$$ You can wind on a Direct drive till the batteries suck into a vacuum and not hurt them. Try that with the GR and you will melt it.
To address the issues some have. Its too heavy,,what? Its only 30 pounds, an old adage from a Sgt Major comes to mind here..Man up, Nancy! As for needing to shim the starter, well mine's an 86 so its a non-issue, but I would think that if you removed your starter and there were shims that you could just use the same amount of shims. I have shimmed other peoples starters before, never seemed to be particularly difficult. As for removing the starter for inspection..inspect what? are you disassembling it to check bushing and brush wear? If not, theres no reason to remove it. Mines been in for 6 years, when its time for a rebuild you'll be notified by the slower cranking revolutions.
Starter bolts coming loose. I re-used my starter bolts last time( because I didn't know any better) No loctite and no torque wrench, just done by hand feel. They haven't come loose. The starter brace nut that tightens up to the assembly stud does have to be very secure, mine showed very minor movement on the brace slot, but again with the lock nut tight it still held. Didn't need to torque this either. This nut is one thing I temporarily would check every now and then. A regular wrench or 1'4" drive socket works just fine. To sum it up, no, the 27MT does not torque itself loose causing the bolts to loosen and the front brace also. If it does ...It's you and or your install procedures. I consulted a couple of CUCV guys up here. They also supported this conclusion.
I end with this quote from anotheer 6.2 forum ; The reason GM went to the gear reduction was cost savings and thats it. Not because they were better. Heavy copper wound starters cost BUCKS $$$ You can wind on a Direct drive till the batteries suck into a vacuum and not hurt them. Try that with the GR and you will melt it.