driving with one wheel/tire/axle off the ground

[StrykerPez]

Yeah. You were making it sound like you planned to drive all over hell and back with your axle chained up so you'd have less tires on the ground.

 

[jesusgatos]

I really think U need to put all that thought to the rest of the truck, U will never go anywhere, not trying to be silly, but u will have no suspension and make a tactical vehicle that is already not the safest vehicle on the road even more unsafe, Now as for unsafe I do mean it is a tactical vehicle and needs alot of things done alot of times to keep it safe, Like the brakes, If U put half that thought in those U will park it forever, I am just saying look at the truck as one whole unit and get good tires and pack all the bearings pull all the wheels and look for leaks also and properly adjust the brakes , that means a major adjustment and a minor in 3 thousand miles and another major in another 3 thou, and replace pads and cylinders as needed. since those will be more troublesome on long trips than the tires, and that is only a few, how about the bolts on the jack shaft, they come loose on long trips, should U change em , or just bring a tool kit and tighten everything now and again, U will get a feul leak and oil too eventually, I am just saying give it a once over and go, U will get more support from this site than chaining an axle will ever do, All the best of luck and enjoy...Randy

I'll never go anywhere? Well ****. I don't know what to do then, because I've already started moving out of my house and putting everything into storage. I'm planning to do some extensive traveling, and will be living out of this vehicle full-time for the next few years. I really don't understand what you're trying to tell me. What does all that unrelated maintenance have to do with the topic at-hand, and why would you assume that I'm going to neglect the rest of the truck?

 

[jesusgatos]

Yeah. You were making it sound like you planned to drive all over hell and back with your axle chained up so you'd have less tires on the ground.

OK, maybe that was my fault for not explaining myself better. Have we cleared that up? Do you understand what I'm talking about now?

 

[Flea]

So what happens if you get more than one flat on your trailer?

Spares are cheap insurance, and with a well-thought-out mount, you can carry more than one on the trailer without having to sacrifice much, if any, cargo room.

 

[BFR]

what type of wheels are you planning on running? If you spring for A3 wheels (or recentered 5 ton wheels) you could have 1 spare mounted and carry a couple of more with o-rings to mount as needed

 

[hndrsonj]

Just my 2 cents. I would go with the new Firestone 11x20 radials then you aren't worrying about spares. If you really want singles, a 14.50x20 (I believe) fits in the spare tire rack. For a 2nd (wouldn't consider not having a 2nd) what about a similar rack as the canadian trucks on the cab roof? Or on top of the 109 bed for that matter? I would also make the trailers tires match so they are all able to be swapped to any position.

 

[Recovry4x4]

As an emergency I see no reason it can't be done. Not going to be smooth and safe but can get you off the road for repairs. Lifting up the fwd axle would not be advised. You are still going to have to drive through that axle and that means one or both of the lifted tires will be spinning. No way to regulate which will spin faster and as a result you will see quick wear on the spider gears. If you are going to chain one up, do the back. Now with the weight of the 109 body back there (4000#) and the aft axle lifted, I would expect some really weird handling. I'd find a way to carry more spares if you are going that far off the beaten path. Guess its a matter of priorities. BTW, check out the towed deuce in the pic!

 

[mudguppy]

alright, to try and answer your question without giving advice that you did not solicit in the first place... you are trying to make provisions that would facilitate chaining an axle easier, yes?

it seems it would be pretty straight forward on a truck such as a deuce. but to make it even easier, i'm thinking of a mount on the side of the frame above the axle centerline. maybe a solid bracket that would recieve a shackle?

i was thinking that some sort of grab hook attachment would be neat so you could just sling the chain into the grab hook and let the axle down. or, how about like they do on some tow trucks - bracket that has a hole w/ a slot at the bottom of it that the chain rests in to lock it in? either way it'd have to be a beefy mount.

what about a beefy bracket that has a provision allowing the grab hook of a ratchet binder to hook into - bracket on the side of the frame and on the axle?

also, you need to make sure that the chains used use a clevis or some other sort of device (zip ties?) to ensure that the chain does not pop out of the grab hook. there was a set of chains on the HEMMTT wrecker that had a special set of small clevises that fit around the grab hook to lock the chain in. you don't want a chained axle to drop driving down the road...




now for the unsolicited advice... what? everyone else was doing it.

there is nothing wrong w/ chaining only one side of the axle - this is for emergency use only, so could you really care less about uneven tire wear on the opposite side? secondly, it'd probably only take you two tries to get the chain height sorted out and get the axle level to alleviate this.

also, if your rears are at or close to capacity, it would be foolish to chain the rear-most axle - this shifts the load off of your front axle and greatly increases the load on the intermediate..... greatly. rather, if i had a pretty decent load, i'd chain the intermediate which would shift only slightly more load on the front axle by effectively making your wheelbase longer.

to sum up, i think you've got plenty of options w/ only a single spare.

 

[mudguppy]

.... Lifting up the fwd axle would not be advised. You are still going to have to drive through that axle and that means one or both of the lifted tires will be spinning. No way to regulate which will spin faster and as a result you will see quick wear on the spider gears. If you are going to chain one up, do the back.

sooooooooooo take the flat tire off...... ? or, unlock the selectable hub on the intermediate?

... Now with the weight of the 109 body back there (4000#) and the aft axle lifted, I would expect some really weird handling. ...

which is why i'd highly advise against chaining the rear - you will quickly overload the intermediate axle, springs, and tires. so much load on only one rear and off-loading so much of the front combined with a now [effectively] much shorter wheelbase can make for dangerous handling - not weird. the overloaded springs can put you into a body roll problem and possibly lead to a roll over.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Chaining the fore axle will cause you all kinds of grief to the spiders and the tires (flat) will be spinning going down the road. Travis, I understand about the weight but one must consider the collateral damage that you could incur to the fwd axle. You could remove the axle shafts to quell that issue but at that point fixing the tire might be easier. If I were to set off on an adventure such as this I'd be certain to have some tire tools and the ability to use them. Necessity is certainly the Mother of Invention but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! Jesusgatos, not saying it can't be done, just pointing out some considerations.
Travis, it's all an element of chance and I missed the part about that axle having unlocking hubs.

 

[mudguppy]

Chaining the fore axle will cause you all kinds of grief to the spiders and the tires (flat) will be spinning going down the road. Travis, I understand about the weight but one must consider the collateral damage that you could incur to the fwd axle. You could remove the axle shafts to quell that issue but at that point fixing the tire might be easier...

i don't understand - how is chaining up the rear axle more expediant than the intermediate and removing a tire? and how is tire differential speed a concern on the intermediate, but not the rear?

ah - you're pulling the rear drive shaft? so, chaining the entire rear and pulling a shaft is easier than taking off the flat?

also, i thought we were only talking about chaining axles when he was out of spares?????

... Travis, it's all an element of chance and I missed the part about that axle having unlocking hubs.

i made that part up - he doesn't have them but it should be an option to consider. that would be a very easy add-on.

 

[Recovry4x4]

i don't understand - how is chaining up the rear axle more expediant than the intermediate and removing a tire? and how is tire differential speed a concern on the intermediate, but not the rear?

ah - you're pulling the rear drive shaft? so, chaining the entire rear and pulling a shaft is easier than taking off the flat?

also, i thought we were only talking about chaining axles when he was out of spares?????





i made that part up - he doesn't have them but it should be an option to consider. that would be a very easy add-on.

I'm voicing concern for the spider gears. No skin off my back if he burns a set up. Chain up the fwd axle and go for it! At that point expedient wasn't my thought, saving the spiders are! Yes, I would pull the inter axle shaft to cease the possibility of burning up that aft spider gears. We were talking about being out of spares, thats why I mentioned fixing it, not changing it. All but a serious cut can be fixed on the trail and even a cut tire can be used to limp out if you carry adequate supplies. Carrier repairs on the trail are difficult. The unlocking hubs at every wheel could certainly be useful with such a design.

 

[chicklin]

I think you'd have to do some pretty serious damage to an NDCC to make it unusable off-road. Why not just carry one full spare (for the easy swap) and several tubes and proper tools if things get worse.

As pointed out earlier, if you're ruining multiple tires, something else is probably wrong.

 

[DUG]

That's exactly what I'm planning on doing. Running it as a super-singled 6x6. I'll have one spare, and will use that if I get a flat. If I get a second flat, that's when I'd need to chain-up the axle. Sorry, was I unclear about that?

Must have been a little unclear, because I misunderstood.

 

[mudguppy]

I'm voicing concern for the spider gears. ....

i'm confused about your point - i'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. How will this hurt the spider gears?



the reason i ask how is this: if you chain up the axle (any axle at this point, i don't care) and it is close to level or even up in the air some, you mentioned differential tire speeds due to the one tire being flat. I offer 2 questions:

1. the tire is chained up, so there will basically be no load on the tire, meaning no traction. Besides the fact that a flat tire doesn't provide much traction, won't this mean that the tire scrub will basically be nothing?
2. also, considering these conditions, how could this tire scrub be any harder on the spider gears than the tire scrub experienced with the axle on the ground under full load (w/ good tires)?

I just don't understand how you will tear up a third member in this scenario by forces that would seem to be nowhere near what the truck was designed to handle (max load, pavement, hard turn)?????

 

[jesusgatos]

Wow. This is a lot to respond to. Here goes-

So what happens if you get more than one flat on your trailer?

Spares are cheap insurance, and with a well-thought-out mount, you can carry more than one on the trailer without having to sacrifice much, if any, cargo room.

I would have to shuffle tires. If I've already used the spare, I'd have to take one good wheel/tire off of mah deuce. The way I'm building/packing/traveling, space is at a premium and spare tires DO take up a lot of space.

what type of wheels are you planning on running? If you spring for A3 wheels (or recentered 5 ton wheels) you could have 1 spare mounted and carry a couple of more with o-rings to mount as needed

I haven't decided yet. I was really keen on the ODiron wheels, but now I'm leaning towards the 5-tons because it would be great if I could replace tubes or sew-up a torn sidewall with a LOT less work.

Just my 2 cents. I would go with the new Firestone 11x20 radials then you aren't worrying about spares. If you really want singles, a 14.50x20 (I believe) fits in the spare tire rack. For a 2nd (wouldn't consider not having a 2nd) what about a similar rack as the canadian trucks on the cab roof? Or on top of the 109 bed for that matter? I would also make the trailers tires match so they are all able to be swapped to any position.

11x20's are definitely an option. Not my favorite one, but it may be the most sensible option. I'm leaning towards 14.5's, but would really like to be able to carry another 50 gallons of fuel where the stock spare is mounted. Can't put a spare on top of the cab because I'm building a cabover storage box, where the generator(s) and tankless water heater(s) are going to be mounted. Putting a 250lb+ wheel/tire on TOP of the M109 box, over 13ft up in the air doesn't sound like a great idea to me. I'm going to build a viewing platform/solar panel framework on top of the box, but that's only going to add 2" to the total height of the vehicle. Really don't want to go any taller than that. I guess I could put wheels/tires on top of the trailer box, (which will be at least 1.5ft shorter than the M109 box). That might be a good place to put wheels/tires if I do end up having to remove them to chain-up the axle. Thanks for the helpful suggestions. You gave me a few things to think about.

As an emergency I see no reason it can't be done. Not going to be smooth and safe but can get you off the road for repairs. Lifting up the fwd axle would not be advised. You are still going to have to drive through that axle and that means one or both of the lifted tires will be spinning. No way to regulate which will spin faster and as a result you will see quick wear on the spider gears. If you are going to chain one up, do the back. Now with the weight of the 109 body back there (4000#) and the aft axle lifted, I would expect some really weird handling. I'd find a way to carry more spares if you are going that far off the beaten path. Guess its a matter of priorities. BTW, check out the towed deuce in the pic!

Hadn't thought about the spider gears. I was already planning on installing a double-splined axleshaft and one locking hub on the forward axle. That might be a good reason to install locking hubs at each corner, but it's not in the budget right now.

alright, to try and answer your question without giving advice that you did not solicit in the first place... you are trying to make provisions that would facilitate chaining an axle easier, yes?

Gee, that would be awesome.

it seems it would be pretty straight forward on a truck such as a deuce. but to make it even easier, i'm thinking of a mount on the side of the frame above the axle centerline. maybe a solid bracket that would recieve a shackle?

i was thinking that some sort of grab hook attachment would be neat so you could just sling the chain into the grab hook and let the axle down. or, how about like they do on some tow trucks - bracket that has a hole w/ a slot at the bottom of it that the chain rests in to lock it in? either way it'd have to be a beefy mount.

what about a beefy bracket that has a provision allowing the grab hook of a ratchet binder to hook into - bracket on the side of the frame and on the axle?

also, you need to make sure that the chains used use a clevis or some other sort of device (zip ties?) to ensure that the chain does not pop out of the grab hook. there was a set of chains on the HEMMTT wrecker that had a special set of small clevises that fit around the grab hook to lock the chain in. you don't want a chained axle to drop driving down the road...

You're reading my mind. I was thinking that I'd design some brackets to run a chain through and then be able to lock the chain down at the appropriate length. This is really a pretty simple project when it comes down to HOW to do it.

now for the unsolicited advice... what? everyone else was doing it.

Sure, jump on. Hah.

there is nothing wrong w/ chaining only one side of the axle - this is for emergency use only, so could you really care less about uneven tire wear on the opposite side? secondly, it'd probably only take you two tries to get the chain height sorted out and get the axle level to alleviate this.

also, if your rears are at or close to capacity, it would be foolish to chain the rear-most axle - this shifts the load off of your front axle and greatly increases the load on the intermediate..... greatly. rather, if i had a pretty decent load, i'd chain the intermediate which would shift only slightly more load on the front axle by effectively making your wheelbase longer.

to sum up, i think you've got plenty of options w/ only a single spare.

Good point about leveling the load, but then what about the spider gears?

Chaining the fore axle will cause you all kinds of grief to the spiders and the tires (flat) will be spinning going down the road. Travis, I understand about the weight but one must consider the collateral damage that you could incur to the fwd axle. You could remove the axle shafts to quell that issue but at that point fixing the tire might be easier. If I were to set off on an adventure such as this I'd be certain to have some tire tools and the ability to use them. Necessity is certainly the Mother of Invention but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! Jesusgatos, not saying it can't be done, just pointing out some considerations.
Travis, it's all an element of chance and I missed the part about that axle having unlocking hubs.

Removing the axleshafts is a lot easier than installing a spare tire that I don't have. I'm not expecting to have to resort to chaining-up the axles often (ever?), but better to be prepared, right? It's such a simple little project, I figured I might as well make these chain-mounts now and hope I never need to use them.

i don't understand - how is chaining up the rear axle more expediant than the intermediate and removing a tire? and how is tire differential speed a concern on the intermediate, but not the rear?

ah - you're pulling the rear drive shaft? so, chaining the entire rear and pulling a shaft is easier than taking off the flat?

also, i thought we were only talking about chaining axles when he was out of spares?????

Out of spare. Singular. but yeah, of course I would install a spare before I resorted to chaining-up.

i made that part up - he doesn't have them but it should be an option to consider. that would be a very easy add-on.

Actually, they are in the plans. I've already talked to Randy at OEM about this project.

I'm voicing concern for the spider gears. No skin off my back if he burns a set up. Chain up the fwd axle and go for it! At that point expedient wasn't my thought, saving the spiders are! Yes, I would pull the inter axle shaft to cease the possibility of burning up that aft spider gears. We were talking about being out of spares, thats why I mentioned fixing it, not changing it. All but a serious cut can be fixed on the trail and even a cut tire can be used to limp out if you carry adequate supplies. Carrier repairs on the trail are difficult. The unlocking hubs at every wheel could certainly be useful with such a design.

I appreciate your concern and input. But I'm not sure I'm really understanding what the issue/problem would be with the spider gears. I mean, if the power is going through the differential to the rear axle but both forward wheels/tires are off the ground, wouldn't they just freewheel along with the rest of the drivetrain? I guess one could just twist in the breeze while the other turns at twice the speed. Likely?

I think you'd have to do some pretty serious damage to an NDCC to make it unusable off-road. Why not just carry one full spare (for the easy swap) and several tubes and proper tools if things get worse.

As pointed out earlier, if you're ruining multiple tires, something else is probably wrong.

I don't know what the question is. I've already explained why I don't want to carry more than one spare, but would like to have the peace of mind of being able to endure more than one flat.

Must have been a little unclear, because I misunderstood.

Is it getting clearer?

 

[jesusgatos]

I think we've established that this idea will work, at least in concept. So I'm going to design some brackets and chain mounts. I'll post-up my CAD files for you guys to take a look at before I get parts cut. Then we'll see how they work. If they work as well as I think they will, I would want to have a set on almost any singled-deuce. I just can't see any downside. It's not like they'd be in the way and they'd be there IF you ever end up needing them.

Thanks to everyone for all the input.

 

[hndrsonj]

I don't think you need brackets/mounts. If you just jack up each side of whichever axle at a time and jack it up as far as you can before it starts to lift the side of the truck, then take a healthy sized chain with 1 hook on the end just wrap it around a crossmember and hook it to itself and lower jack. Repeat for other side. No special mounts needed. Cut chain to length before your trip by practicing in the yard. Adding to my previous post, If you put the spare on the top of the trailer or box you could make lifting it alot easier by using one of the el cheapo harbor freight crank type lifts that can be pinned in a mount then removed so you aren't the one doing the heavy lifting.

 

[jesusgatos]

i'm confused about your point - i'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. How will this hurt the spider gears?

the reason i ask how is this: if you chain up the axle (any axle at this point, i don't care) and it is close to level or even up in the air some, you mentioned differential tire speeds due to the one tire being flat. I offer 2 questions:

1. the tire is chained up, so there will basically be no load on the tire, meaning no traction. Besides the fact that a flat tire doesn't provide much traction, won't this mean that the tire scrub will basically be nothing?
2. also, considering these conditions, how could this tire scrub be any harder on the spider gears than the tire scrub experienced with the axle on the ground under full load (w/ good tires)?

I just don't understand how you will tear up a third member in this scenario by forces that would seem to be nowhere near what the truck was designed to handle (max load, pavement, hard turn)?????

I appreciate your concern and input. But I'm not sure I'm really understanding what the issue/problem would be with the spider gears. I mean, if the power is going through the differential to the rear axle but both forward wheels/tires are off the ground, wouldn't they just freewheel along with the rest of the drivetrain? I guess one could just twist in the breeze while the other turns at twice the speed. Likely?

Looks like we're both wondering about the same thing. I would like to better understand what the issues are here, because I'm not really seeing what the problem is/might be and I thought I understood differentials pretty well. Hell, I wrote an introduction to gearing and differentials article for off-road.com a few years ago. I don't think anyone's trying to start a pissing match. We're just interested in talking about what the real problems/issues might be.

 

[jesusgatos]

I don't think you need brackets/mounts. If you just jack up each side of whichever axle at a time and jack it up as far as you can before it starts to lift the side of the truck, then take a healthy sized chain with 1 hook on the end just wrap it around a crossmember and hook it to itself and lower jack. Repeat for other side. No special mounts needed. Cut chain to length before your trip by practicing in the yard.

I'm sure that would work in a pinch, but that's not really how I like to do things (I'm a product designer/professional tinkerer). I'm down to improvise an make-do when we're out in the middle of nowhere (and I've done a lot of that), but this is just too easy to do 'right'.

Adding to my previous post, If you put the spare on the top of the trailer or box you could make lifting it alot easier by using one of the el cheapo harbor freight crank type lifts that can be pinned in a mount then removed so you aren't the one doing the heavy lifting.

I knew exactly what you meant, and took the winch for granted. I'm actually planning on installing a small winch on top of the trailer box so that I can load a small aluminum fishing boat on top of the trailer by myself. The trailer is low enough (because of the drop-frame M353 trailer) that the loaded trailer will be about the same height as the M109. Like I said, it's probably a good place to stash a blown-out tire or two if I'm traveling with a full load, but I'm not wild about the idea of putting all that weight up that high permanently.