Electric Fuel lift pump

[osteo16]

Anyone install an electric fuel lift pump (pre filter) , any reason to, and why or why not??
Just trying to get ahead of things before i start tearing down the 6.5 N/A in the M998..

And on topic of fuel, read somewhere about fuel additives such as 2 stroke oil.. again, anyone doing this and outcomes...

Thanks

Ocho

 

[Coug]

2 stroke oil and many of the additives may give slight benefits to the fuel, and if you use a good quality one you're unlikely to do any harm, but there isn't really much need to treat fuel unless you have a good reason to.
One example is in very cold climates adding anti-gel additives may be beneficial, especially if the fuel in the tank was purchased during a warmer time of year and isn't winter blend, or biocides for fuel that's going to sit for a long time.

There really isn't much of a need to do an electric pump with the 6.5 engine, the mechanical pump provides it with plenty of fuel. Heck, these things will run without any lift pump at all if the fuel system doesn't have any air in it. You can do it if you want to, but I personally don't see a reason to change a system that has worked for decades.

Only possibly reason I could see for adding it in the HMMWV is if you're changing to a non-standard engine like the cummins or duramax (my buddy's mercedes diesel wagon from the 80's would benefit from one just because the fuel lines are so restrictive, but that's not really related)

 

[osteo16]

Thanks Coug, again Im just thowing some things out Ive been pondering in my head. Im planning on tearing a bunch down and refurbishing, just dont wanna miss any improvements i can make along the way while its in pieces... Millions of pieces

 

[Coug]

yeah, I know the feeling. If you're going to tear it apart, that's the best time to make upgrades.
Also not a bad idea to throw out questions to this crowd. Unlike a lot of forums, we're pretty laid back and won't jump all over someone for asking a new idea, unless of course there are already a couple dozen threads about it (like asking why my truck won't start with very little added information, there really ARE dozens of those threads)

 

[MattNC]

I had read the additives were important to help lubricate the injector pump in older engines when using ultra-low sulfur diesel. Is that true or old wives tales?

 

[NDT]

6.5 TD Chevy trucks all have electric fuel pumps and they are widely known to fail and leave you stranded.

 

[osteo16]

I've been researching this also. Additives like ATF fluid to help seals and clean pump. I've seen these all mentioned : WVO, ATF, Mystery Oil, 2 Stroke Oil. Seems like something I need to research but I think some benefits are there for some type of additive to ULSD...

 

[REF]

I have been in the tractor industry my whole life, all diesel all the time. Back when they went to low sulfur we saw most all of the rotary (round) injection pumps fail due to loss of lubrication. As time went on and we saw ultra low sulfur fuel that pretty much took out the rest. once the pumps were rebuilt they seem to tolerate the loss of sulfur better but the cost of rebuilding the pumps with parts that would tolerate the loss of sulfur started running about 2.5 to 3K (ouch). And now they are putting solvent in the diesel called Ethanol, So in my opinion if you are running a rotary style diesel injector pump (HMMWV) you would be wise to use a fuel additive, I will not recommend any specific one or brand but look for one that adds lubrication to the fuel and there are many out there.
Modern common Rail systems are built to deal with the loss of sulfur but watch out, read your op manual and find out how much Ethanol your system will tolerate, most will work with 10% without problems but check the pump when filling up E85 fuel is 15% and I have seen up to 20% and older common rail systems won't like it.

 

[Coug]

I had read the additives were important to help lubricate the injector pump in older engines when using ultra-low sulfur diesel. Is that true or old wives tales?

The sulfur did act as a lubricant in older fuel systems, so I won't say it's a bad idea to use some type of additive, but there are still plenty of vehicles out on the road that have done hundreds of thousands of miles on them since the introduction of ULSD. They do add some lubricity enhancers to bring it up to spec ([FONT=&quot]ASTM D 975 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel) [/FONT] but they are added at the terminal before it gets sent to the pump, so there is no way to know if the enhancers (and the rest of the additive package) are actually effective.

Here is a study done in 2007, 2% biodiesel performed the best and is readily available (in fact most pumps sell B2 rather than straight diesel these days depending on where you live), and about a third of the products tested actually made the fuel lubricity worse.

https://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

 

[Coug]

I have been in the tractor industry my whole life, all diesel all the time. Back when they went to low sulfur we saw most all of the rotary (round) injection pumps fail due to loss of lubrication. As time went on and we saw ultra low sulfur fuel that pretty much took out the rest. once the pumps were rebuilt they seem to tolerate the loss of sulfur better but the cost of rebuilding the pumps with parts that would tolerate the loss of sulfur started running about 2.5 to 3K (ouch). And now they are putting solvent in the diesel called Ethanol, So in my opinion if you are running a rotary style diesel injector pump (HMMWV) you would be wise to use a fuel additive, I will not recommend any specific one or brand but look for one that adds lubrication to the fuel and there are many out there.
Modern common Rail systems are built to deal with the loss of sulfur but watch out, read your op manual and find out how much Ethanol your system will tolerate, most will work with 10% without problems but check the pump when filling up E85 fuel is 15% and I have seen up to 20% and older common rail systems won't like it.

Umm, E85 is an 85% ethanol 15% gasoline blend (anywhere from 51% ethanol to 83% actually, based on climate) , not to be used in Diesel engines for any reason.

The biggest issue with the loss of sulfur in fuel is that sulfur causes seals to swell, when it was removed a lot of pumps started leaking fuel past the seals, and needed rebuilt to handle the newer fuel. I don't doubt that quite a few also dies from lack of lubrication, but the leaking seals was the big issue.
E-Diesel is very uncommon in most of the country, this is actually the first time I've heard of it. Ethanol in a diesel fuel system is bad to begin with, as ethanol bonds with water molecules and can cause water to bypass the fuel/water separator before dropping out of suspension. If it does that the water molecules can damage modern injectors due to very tight tolerances compared to older injectors.

 

[Coug]

I've been researching this also. Additives like ATF fluid to help seals and clean pump. I've seen these all mentioned : WVO, ATF, Mystery Oil, 2 Stroke Oil. Seems like something I need to research but I think some benefits are there for some type of additive to ULSD...

I've mostly heard of ATF being used to help free up sticking injectors, because of the amount of detergents in it, though I can see it cleaning the pump as well. Not sure about it's effect on seals.

 

[REF]

Thanks for correcting me Coug, I was on a roll when I through out E85 and that was wrong. Our fuel stations out here have green stickers on the telling you the percentage of ethanol in the fuel, They usually say: suitable for all diesel engines or not to exceed 15% or not to exceed 20%.
Also please note the pumps I was speaking of are the rotary style, they use the fuel as their sole source of lubrication. inline pumps have their own lubrication (engine oil) to lubricate them so seal swelling was their main problem.

 

[Coug]

Thanks for correcting me Coug, I was on a roll when I through out E85 and that was wrong. Our fuel stations out here have green stickers on the telling you the percentage of ethanol in the fuel, They usually say: suitable for all diesel engines or not to exceed 15% or not to exceed 20%.
Also please note the pumps I was speaking of are the rotary style, they use the fuel as their sole source of lubrication. inline pumps have their own lubrication (engine oil) to lubricate them so seal swelling was their main problem.

Around here the stickers say things like B2, B5 or B20, or higher numbers up to B100, but that's the biodiesel blend not ethanol. Ethanol is strictly for gasoline in my area. Fortunately I can get ethanol free gasoline at a few local pumps because we're near the water and ethanol fuel sucks the moisture right out of the air. That causes a lot of issued in boat motors.
B2 gave the best lubricity, it dropped off after that. The higher the Biodiesel blend, the faster the fuel went bad or grew algae, but B100 is also a great solvent and will strip the paint off of a vehicle or tractor if you aren't careful with it.

I know cars like the VW TDI from 2009 onward don't work with anything over B5 because the emissions system Diesel particulate filter has to get burned out regularly, and they do that by injecting raw fuel into cylinders to go through the exhaust and heat up the DPF. Problem is the biodiesel is too good of a solvent and washes away the motor oil on the cylinder walls, can get past the rings and dilute the oil (which is pretty expensive at $50 for 5 quarts) and cause long term issues. Those are the warning stickers around here.

Seeing as you're from California though it doesn't surprise me that the pumps would be doing something to reduce one type of emissions at the expense of others. E-Diesel does seem to reduce particulate emissions, but increases other types of emissions.

 

[REF]

Yep;
We here in California have different problems -- Like -- never put ATF in your diesel fuel (like we use to do). Now we have what is called clear diesel and Red diesel the only difference is red diesel has red die in it and indicates for agricultural use only indicating that there was no road use tax paid on that fuel. Clear diesel is for on road use and was sold with appropriate taxes.
put a little ATF in your clear diesel and it becomes red - and running red fuel on the road comes with BIG fines.
Gotta love living here.

 

[sue]

Buy a cheap 5-20,10-30 gallon of oil from
wally world and add a quart or 2 a tank.

 

[Coug]

Yep;
We here in California have different problems -- Like -- never put ATF in your diesel fuel (like we use to do). Now we have what is called clear diesel and Red diesel the only difference is red diesel has red die in it and indicates for agricultural use only indicating that there was no road use tax paid on that fuel. Clear diesel is for on road use and was sold with appropriate taxes.
put a little ATF in your clear diesel and it becomes red - and running red fuel on the road comes with BIG fines.
Gotta love living here.

If you have some old used motor oil that's been sitting for a long time for the particulates to settle out, or you can run it through a filter (like 5 micron or less) it will turn the fuel black. It won't matter what color it started as.
Yes, dyed off road fuel is everywhere, $10k fine per violation or something like that. Just not worth it, especially as these days it isn't even that much cheaper where I live.

 

[osteo16]

Havent looked into it, but is dyed fuel any different from regular diesel? Is the only difference the red dye and fact that its not taxed on the front end the same... Just wondering, guess ill look into it.........well tool me 2 seconds.. Looks like non road diesel was made by the EPA in 2014 to be ULSD compliant... Just thought that off road diesel might not be any better that road diesel for lubricity...

 

[HUNvee]

Here in Hungary oil bleaching appeared in the 1990s. The ferrocene in the oil was neutralized with sulfuric acid. Thus, it became available for sale as fuel, making the mafia billions.Today they only sell one type of diesel, which is 30% more expensive than gasoline.I think I should look for something in California ...

Yep;
We here in California have different problems -- Like -- never put ATF in your diesel fuel (like we use to do). Now we have what is called clear diesel and Red diesel the only difference is red diesel has red die in it and indicates for agricultural use only indicating that there was no road use tax paid on that fuel. Clear diesel is for on road use and was sold with appropriate taxes.
put a little ATF in your clear diesel and it becomes red - and running red fuel on the road comes with BIG fines.
Gotta love living here.

 

[MattNC]

Thanks for posting the research article. It was nice it compared some of the homemade ideas like ATF and used motor oil in their testing. Right now I use optilube which I buy by the case from the website that funds Jeff Bezos’s alimony. It adds a few dollars a tank but is easy to keep in the storage box and from the looks of it is way better than ATF. I guess I’ll just stick with that and hopefully have my injector pump last better. Thanks

 

[osteo16]

Bummer MattNC, was just in Raleigh for daughters college soccer showcase.. Woulda loved to see you Hmmwv..I need to research more people before I head out of town next time ..Maybe we need a sticky or something that has members by state that wouldn’t mind fellow members stopping in for a peak. Or maybe something does exist .. Hijacking my own thread