Electric Winch Install

[Kalashnikov]

Usually worst case senario is it will take 3x the vehicle weight to get it unstuck at it's absolute worst(re:steep grade burried to the frame). So around 60klb to get a 931 out.

I think using 2 12klb winches would probably be better than a single 18klb. You figure right off the bat you're pulling 24klb between the two and it'd be easy enough to throw them on blocks and double back to the d rings on the front so you'd be around 48klb. Then just connect them to a single large recovery line and carry x amount of line to be able to throw a block on that line if need be. I'd think that'd get any of the lighter 5 tons out no problem.

The biggest downfall I see is the slowness of electric winches and the large draw that would be required by two winches at once. I'm not sure what the charging system is capable of putting out watts or amps wise but even if you ran 4 batteries I'd think that'd be sufficient. People run these winches on lower output charging systems with single batteries all the time.

A 5 ton winch should already require the use of 1 block anyways (like a deuce winch) so adding a couple more LIGHT blocks dealing with lighter and easier to handle cable shouldn't be too much more of a hassle. It's emergency use anyhow. Plus you could use the winches if the truck was off.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Anyone ever use a ENGO winch? I read about them in a 4x4 magazine review. I was browsing their website and they make a a 18k hydraulic winch that you can pre-order right now for around a grand!

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Did you mean 45° or 45% grade? Just what truck is capable of a 45° grade alone not even thinking of recovery up that hill. All good information at any rate. In order to really stick a truck and see 2x laden weight for recovery that is fully frame deep full length and no motive power provided by the stuck vehicle. Always a good idea to 2 line a recovery for heavies. Very few electrics will maintain operation at more than 50% load for a full line pull, and 2 lines may very well be just that. Power usage is another issue, the longer they run the more they pull. The single biggest issue is that most (most not all) electrics severely overload the rope used, this is a greater hazard. Then we get the synthetics and I do not need to get started into that mess. Summary, and 18k electric should be good for a 2-1/2, but will really be a stretch for a 5-ton. Assuming it is only used for light recovery.

 

[TehTDK]

Usually worst case senario is it will take 3x the vehicle weight to get it unstuck at it's absolute worst(re:steep grade burried to the frame). So around 60klb to get a 931 out.

In order for you to get 3x weight as the effort required you would be out where you most likely wouldn't be able to help it anyway. If you look at my previous calculation it is as "accurate" as it can get applying only math. But a truck etc in burried in deep mud up to the buttom would only "add" a burden of 66% of the vehicles weight. So a 1 ton vehicle would weight 1.66T. In order for that 1.66T to become 3T you would need to add in a recovery gradient of 72°, and sorry but I don't think any civilian or military vehicle can traverse a hill/incline at 72°. At the absolute worst we would be talking a 89° degree incline, and at that angle I would think gravity might be a better bet. But if we stay within you 3x Vehicle weight to get free then we are "simply" looking at recovering at a 72° incline at which point I would like to know who would be as stupid as to try and tackle an incline/decline that steep

Did you mean 45° or 45% grade?

45°, because technically 45° is a 100% gradient . And the FMTV Wrecker someone bought and has shown on here has 40° Approach AND departure angles. So I don't see 45° as being entirely impossible or unplausible. Ie the G-Wagon 290 GD is listed at roughly 34-38° Approach/Departure, but is actually able to work its way up and down steeper angles then that, the only problem being that you would ground out as you would try to start on or try to come off the hill.

 

[TehTDK]

*Ignore*

 

[Kalashnikov]

In order for you to get 3x weight as the effort required you would be out where you most likely wouldn't be able to help it anyway. If you look at my previous calculation it is as "accurate" as it can get applying only math. But a truck etc in burried in deep mud up to the buttom would only "add" a burden of 66% of the vehicles weight. So a 1 ton vehicle would weight 1.66T. In order for that 1.66T to become 3T you would need to add in a recovery gradient of 72°, and sorry but I don't think any civilian or military vehicle can traverse a hill/incline at 72°. At the absolute worst we would be talking a 89° degree incline, and at that angle I would think gravity might be a better bet. But if we stay within you 3x Vehicle weight to get free then we are "simply" looking at recovering at a 72° incline at which point I would like to know who would be as stupid as to try and tackle an incline/decline that steep

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Recovery/index.html

That's a silly thing to say. There is always something bigger or another way to get something unstuck.

 

[FireFighterHill]

http://piercearrow.co/?portfolio=20000-utility-winch Found this 20k electric one. Can buy it for about 1,100 brand new on ebay.

 

[Vintage iron]

I like the winch FireFighterHill. I installed a 18k Warn winch on a customers M109A4. The electric winch quality is not even close to a hydraulic winch or PTO winch. I had to build him a beefy mount that could take the loads the winch would put on the mount, then I had to run cables to the battery box. Don't forget the cost of the battery cables, cable ends, heat shrink tubing, insulted brackets and maybe bigger or better batteries in the cost. plus the further you are from the battery the more amps you lose. I will say it would be nice to have one that can be moved from the front to the back of a truck and can be controlled by remote.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Ive been emailing a Rep with Pierce Arrow and the seller on Ebay is an authorized reseller and also should be able to get 24 volt version of the PS20000 winch. The company also makes dump kits and have installed them on a military 5ton for a customer. http://youtu.be/i9uykRWxQQw

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Still curious what wheeled vehicle will do a 45° grade. Our trucks are rated for a 60% grade and most if not all will not climb that, due to traction limiting. No issues with the numbers, or calculations or advice to be careful and use enough equipment. That said, a 20k electric winch might be ok for light recovery on a 2-1/2.

 

[TehTDK]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Recovery/index.html

That's a silly thing to say. There is always something bigger or another way to get something unstuck.

Then you misread what I "said". I didn't say a recovery at that angle was impossible, rather that I haven't heard of any stock vehicle military or commercial that could go up a 72° incline or decline. The only vehicles known to me that is able to negotiate an incline that steep is modified frame rail trucks like the Islandic Volcano "jeeps" that are more or less just a steel frame with scoop tires and massive turbo/super-charged engines and some with NOS or running NitroMeth as fuel.

But I don't think you would ever end in a realistic situation where you would effectively need 3x Vehicle weight to pull out a vehicle if its stuck... unless it was completely swallowed by a thick slurry mud and it had effectively sunken completely under etc. And at that point I would think its of more use as a ground anchor then being recoverable

Still curious what wheeled vehicle will do a 45° grade. Our trucks are rated for a 60% grade and most if not all will not climb that, due to traction limiting. No issues with the numbers, or calculations or advice to be careful and use enough equipment. That said, a 20k electric winch might be ok for light recovery on a 2-1/2.

The M1089 Wrecker has a 40°/40° Approach/Departure angle which is pretty darn close to 45°. And if it can do 40° then I am pretty sure there might be some vehicles that are able to negotiate 45° Approach/Departure either within its specs, or simply with proper driver skill.

If you don' believe me then I suggest you read this post and checkout the PDF that is attached http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...cker-is-home&p=1372512&viewfull=1#post1372512

But personally I would always prefer a PTO or Hydraulic winch over an electric one simply down to the fact of running cycles. If I am going mudding or gonna be driving around during wintertime here, then I want to know that I have a winch that I can use continuously to recover stuck vehicles etc as well as self-recover without having to worry too much about cool down times. For the irregular or very casual use sure an electric winch might serve its purpose. But if you plan on using it regularly and several times in a day, or in any way professionally then I would shy away from the electric ones. A few people on here has mentioned that some of the military personnel are less then impressed by the Warn winch installed on the Cougar 6x6's MRAPS.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I think comparing approach angles with the ability to actually climb that grade is comparing apples to oranges. FM 20-22 uses this as a guide when calculating a mud recovery. Mud up to the hubs requires roughly double the vehicle weight for recovery and mired to the top of the fenders is triple the vehicles weight. I'm sure the Army used some technical data to come up with those numbers but these are the guidelines in 20-22.

 

[TehTDK]

I think comparing approach angles with the ability to actually climb that grade is comparing apples to oranges. FM 20-22 uses this as a guide when calculating a mud recovery. Mud up to the hubs requires roughly double the vehicle weight for recovery and mired to the top of the fenders is triple the vehicles weight. I'm sure the Army used some technical data to come up with those numbers but these are the guidelines in 20-22.

I don't refute what you use as material etc for it, don't get me wrong there . But I tend to err on the side of assumption that a vehicle that has ie 40/40 Approach/Departure at least would be able to negotiate a grade at that incline/decline and possible more. But at the very least, should be able to negotiate the angles it was actually "designed" to approach or depart.

I don't have possession of FM-20-22, but all the maths and information added to the thread at least by me, comes straight out of the documentation and knowledge that the Danish Army Wreckers use to recover both wheeled AND tracked vehicles. Those numbers are however NOT the ultimate solution but only a guideline as to what kind of pulling effort would be required at the very least. But obviously situational awareness and a common sense should always be used as well . If the math tells you that you need 20,000 pounds of pulling force and you have 20,000 pounds available, then obviously someone either didn't give you the right figures. But in that case it would be common sense to simply halt and adapt/overcome as opposed to keep trying.

According to "my" documentation trying to recover a Leopard 2A5 (which weighs in at 65T give or take) burried 50-100 cm above its free height in clay etc would require 95 tonnes of pulling effort in a straight line pull. 110T pulling effort at a 5° incline/decline, 120-125T pulling effort at 10° etc.

A succesfull recovery basically comes down to having enough pulling effort, ie either through having a winch large enough, or simply enough line/shacles to double back and forth for a gear reduction, ASWELL as sufficient anchor weight to brake yourself from getting pulled towards the vehicle you are trying to recover as opposed to recovering it . Technically it would actually be possible for a Deuce etc to recover an Abrams/Challanger 2/Leopard 2 given enough line/gear reduction and provided it was "anchored" well enough.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Then you misread what I "said". I didn't say a recovery at that angle was impossible, rather that I haven't heard of any stock vehicle military or commercial that could go up a 72° incline or decline. The only vehicles known to me that is able to negotiate an incline that steep is modified frame rail trucks like the Islandic Volcano "jeeps" that are more or less just a steel frame with scoop tires and massive turbo/super-charged engines and some with NOS or running NitroMeth as fuel.

But I don't think you would ever end in a realistic situation where you would effectively need 3x Vehicle weight to pull out a vehicle if its stuck... unless it was completely swallowed by a thick slurry mud and it had effectively sunken completely under etc. And at that point I would think its of more use as a ground anchor then being recoverable

In order for you to get 3x weight as the effort required you would be out where you most likely wouldn't be able to help it anyway.

.

I was talking about this statement, implying that you'd just abandon the vehicle.

Check out some Alaskan videos of people getting stuck. You might change your mind.

I've personally had my deuce stuck t the point of the bed being on the ground, water in cab, fender just about under water.

I'd also like to point out that the 20klb winch still only has a 6.5hp motor, the same as the 12klb winches. All they are doing is using more gear reduction. At max load you are only going at a rate of 2FPM, which is extremely slow when you have 80' to reel in.

In real world experience no one ever actually worries about cool-down time. I had someone winch my truck literally for hours stop and go through hill/rocks, pretty rough stuff. The winch never gave up.

IMO hydraulic is the best way to go. No shear pins (in some cases there are), no drive shafts and linkages to impeded mounting, and much better speed control.

 

[TehTDK]

Kalashnikov, I know there are some video's of hairy recoveries out there. But what I meant was that the number of cases were you would need 3x vehicle weight as the minimum effort required are very few and far between. But like I also just pointed out "more or less" any vehicle can be used to recover more or less any other vehicle. It all comes down to whether you can achieve the gear reduction required, and has the line for it. As well as being able to anchor the recovering vehicle enough to prevent it from being pulled towards the stranded one.

ie the example posted about the Leopard 2. If its burried 50-100 cm deeper then its ground clerance... which is close to the top of the main chassis then you would need 95T of pulling effort to recover it if it was stuck in clay/mud and I would call that properly stuck if more or less only the tower was sticking up. Which isn't 3x of the Leo2's weight, but yes I know that is on a flat surface, so thus adding some slope naturally adds more effort required. But I'm not saying you won't or can't end in situations where you might require 3x vehicle weight to pull someone out but that it would most likely be so few and far between. I mean even the material I have access to that is used by our army wreckers doesn't even account for it. But again, that doesn't mean it wont happen or couldn't happen

And sure, you can use an electric winch and not give a **** about the cooldown time, and it would work for some time. But at some point in time you would simply have burned out the winch from simply whipping the electric motor more and for longer then it was designed for. And there are Heavier duty electric winches with longer duty cycles, but their cost is also higher obviosuly. And I would hate for my winch to die at the most crucial of all time just because I whipped it too hard. Naturally there is a difference in how you should treat your winch in peacetime and when you are in theatre . If I was deployed to a combat zone and I got stuck I would say to **** with it and just sacrifice the winch if that meant I got out and could get back home and get it replaced as opposed to "treating it nice" and end up being stuck in a firezone for like 1-2 hours.

But I agree on the hydraulics . If I ever get a Deuce etc, I would want to get that PTO changed into hydraulics, just like one of the members on here has done. And then get a proper decent sized Hydraulic winch to go with it instead of the PTO one. But each and every style of winch (mechanical, Hydraulic or electrical) has their own set of advantages and disadvantages and wont all be suited for exact the same purpose or person. So naturally it all comes down to what you expect and want out of it

 

[Recovry4x4]

Most HMMWVs have an approach angle of 69 degrees. I have no expectation that this vehicle will climb that steep of a grade unless is was paved or poured concrete. Here is a copy of FM20-22

 

[TehTDK]

Most HMMWVs have an approach angle of 69 degrees. I have no expectation that this vehicle will climb that steep of a grade unless is was paved or poured concrete. Here is a copy of FM20-22

True that, I have seen a few clips on youtube where they park one right next to a divider and then makes the HMMWV scale it, and drop down again, so yea I can see that part of my argument is flawed . But I would think the 40/40 for the wrecker isn't as far of a stretch in regards to actually being able to drive up that kind of slope considering its used for recovery .

 

[Squirt-Truck]

The provided PDF list maximum grade ability of 60% just like our wheeled vehicles. Approach and departure are meaningless except for humps and bumps. BUT, back to the topic, the op was asking about an electric winch, most any winch is better than no winch. If it must perform as well as an engine driven unit, it will cost much more.

 

[patracy]

If anyone is interested, I'm a reseller for warn. I honestly signed up for them, but closed my storefront before I even looked at their product line. I can check on anything people might want.

 

[Derrickl112]

90 degree approach angle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=I_BGX48Lo8M