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Engine Runs Like Poop

7Dust

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A couple years ago the truck stopped running - from what appeared to be a snapped quill shaft in the Injection Pump. Over the course of a confused year or so I bought a NOS injection pump and gave it my best to install it. Well, my best wasn't good enough. Truck was extremely hard to start, made gutless power and died on deceleration most of the time. SO, it sucks and I let it sit.

I am going to try again to fix it and the only thing I can think of is I got the injection pump timed incorrectly. I am pretty sure it was at TDC (but I suck at this so who knows) and I timed it to the mark on the harmonic pulley for an LDT 465 1C (I think). I am also pretty sure I had the IP mark lined up correctly AND the quill shaft timed (I think).

Ive had months and months and months to think about why my truck sucks and it occurred to me that my truck shows to be an LDT 465 1D on the engine plate. Will it use a different mark?

FSM TM9 2815-210-34-2-2 Page 5-172 Doesn't show a mark to use for an LDT 465 1D - so I guessed.
 

silverstate55

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No difference; same mark.

After following steps outlined in TMs to properly time your IP (not hard, just tedious), change your fuel filters, check the pickup hose on your in-tank lift pump, and try adding some Seafoam to your fuel...it makes an instant difference every time I've done this. Just did almost the same things you did, on a truck that had sat for 12+ years. Fired right up, rough running for about 3-4 minutes, then instantly settled down and runs like a champ now.

What some don't realize about the in-tank hose on your lift pump is that it MUST be rated for total immersion...it is usually special-order stuff, but worth it in the long run.
 
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7Dust

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I have new pump.

Boiled out and Acid Dipped Fuel Tank

Changed all Filters.

Added Diesel Kleen.

Full tank of Diesel.

Its not running like poop because its been sitting. I have performed all of the above just a couple months ago. Refreshed all of the fuel system I can think of.
 

Floridianson

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Are you are sure both your timing marks are on and the HH is one tooth to the rear. Then do a pressure test. In tank pump close or over 4 psi. Idle 30 psi. and 2000 rpm 60 or over psi. Is the FDC bypassed? Get all that done then tweek fuel on the IP with pyro.
 
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cpotato2001

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Did you ever get it running properly? I have the exact same engine, with almost identical issues... except on my "Harmonic balancer" I have 2 timing options...
LDT-465
LD-465-1
About 3/4 inch apart...

At about either mark the truck doesn't run well.. fuel tank has been removed, cleaned, reinstalled, new fuel filter assembly for "primary" fuel filter and new elements in the two "secondary" filters.. I believe I am doing something wrong timing it.. any light to shed?


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silverstate55

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Use the LDT-465 mark.

I just worked on another friend's IP last weekend; he could get it to start with ether, but it would instantly die as soon as it fell below 1300 rpms. I pulled the hydraulic head to check the fuel button on bottom of quill shaft, and sure enough it was off. The button retainer clip looked fine, but it must have fatigued and fallen off. Once I installed a new button retainer clip, it fired up on its own and almost held its own idle; the more it ran, the more it would run as it was supposed to. As the Seafoam worked its way through the IP and the injectors, less smoke came out of exhaust & the idle smoothed out.

Here's what I would do (if you haven't already): disconnect the top radiator support & radiator hose, loosen the lower radiator mounting bolts as much as you can, and tip radiator forward for clearance to remove the fan. With a large 1-5/8" wrench (radiator shroud usually blocks a socket from being used) you can now bar over the engine. Remove the front valve cover; as you line up the timing mark on harmonic balancer, check for clearance on your #1 valves (intake & exhaust). I've found some to be loose, and others to have no clearance at all....but if you have clearance on one valve, the other should have clearance as well or at least be closed (and allowing you to adjust the proper clearance while you're at it). It's pretty obvious; if you bar the engine over another time to line up initial timing marks, you'll notice that the exhaust valve will open, and you're halfway there. Keep barring engine over (preferably with engine shutoff handle pulled out to prevent accidental starting, better safe than sorry) to line up timing marks on harmonic balancer, and check valve clearances again. You should be where you need to be now.

To the left of the hydraulic head (underneath the fuel return elbows) is a small rectangular port held on by 4 bolts; remove these with a 7/16" wrench and remove rectangular cover. With a flashlight, look into port and you should see another timing needle that hopefully points right at another timing mark. About half the time I pull these covers, they are a couple of degrees off. If the mark is off while the harmonic balancer is properly aligned, then you need to do a fine adjustment to IP timing gear to get it right.

Remove the gear cover on front of engine, in front of where the IP bolts into it engine mount (where you would mount a Vickers pump, for example). You'll see a gear wheel with three slotted mounting holes. Use a couple of 9/16" sockets and handles to loosen these 3 bolts and then turn the larger nut in the middle to properly align the IP timing marks. DO NOT MOVE THE HARMONIC BALANCER TIMING MARKS DURING THIS! Once properly aligned (timed), tighten the 3 bolts and replace the two covers.

Now remove the fuel shutoff assembly housing and the spill port assembly to check the hydraulic head timing....you should see the red tooth one to the right of the pointer; I usually have to use a flashlight even in bright sunlight. If you don't see this, your timing is way off and you need to remove the hydraulic head to get it timed properly (although I've never been able to reassemble it if it's been that far off...YMMV). At this point, I would remove the hydraulic head to check the button retainer on the bottom of the quill shaft; it sounds like it might have fallen off. You've come this far, why not?

3 years ago I bought a batch of 12 button retainers from AMBAC, and it looks like they are still available for purchase. I've just about gone through my entire stock of these already, only have 1 or 2 left. IIRC the part number is RG902, and shipping costs more than a purchase of 10 or 12.

You might also want to pull your injectors and have them tested at a shop to eliminate any potential issues there.

After all you've done, I can't imagine why it wouldn't fire up after completing the final steps for timing & injectors....
 

silverstate55

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I pulled another HH last weekend on an older 5-ton tractor with MF engine (LDS-465); previous owner stated that it "ran just fine but it just died one day" and wouldn't restart. So it sat for many years.

When I pulled the HH, the quill shaft was fine but the main spring had broken in two, and wedged the fuel button into it; the two shaft retainer sleeves were chewed up but the quill shaft looked fine. I knew I should have taken pics! Now the hunt is on for a replacement HH. AMBAC will sell remanufactured HHs but don't want to sell other small parts besides the button retainer...the fuel button must be lapped to fit the quill shaft, and the person I chatted with at AMBAC mentioned that the two collar retainers must also be lapped to the quill shaft for proper fit, and that is why they discourage lots of small individual parts sales.
 

Floridianson

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The best way to turn over the motor is with the transmission in 5th transfer case in neutral and just bar over the jack shaft. No need to remove radiator support or hose to get to the crank nut.
 

silverstate55

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The best way to turn over the motor is with the transmission in 5th transfer case in neutral and just bar over the jack shaft. No need to remove radiator support or hose to get to the crank nut.
Absolutely correct.

I tend to go the radiator route (as well as removing the driver's side fender) since I do 99% of work on Deuces by myself, it's easier for me to do everything from the driver's side front wheel area...I can see the pointers and can reach the #1 cylinder valves from the same position. I have a hard time lying across fenders or any other sheet metal, I'd rather remove them and have easier access to the IP.
 

cpotato2001

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Curious.... I just had the IP and HH reman'd at our local Diesel Specialties shop (actually they sent it away to Iowa) but wouldn't they have checked fuel button and quill shaft during that $950 process?


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rustystud

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Curious.... I just had the IP and HH reman'd at our local Diesel Specialties shop (actually they sent it away to Iowa) but wouldn't they have checked fuel button and quill shaft during that $950 process?


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Honestly you never know what some shops consider a rebuild. Myself if I just replace a few parts and adjust everything I call that a "refresh" . Now if I call it a rebuild it will have all new bearings and bushings and seals and all parts will be within factory specs. You need to talk with the shop upfront before you ever have them do any work for you. Have them tell you what they consider a rebuild to be and go from there.
 

gimpyrobb

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No one mentioned it could be 180*out of time?

With your harmonic balancer lined up and the pointer lined up in the advance unit (4 bolt window),make sure you can see the red-scored tooth under the fuel shut off cap. The key here is that you pull the valve cover toward the rad and the valve is closed on the front cyl. That is tdc.
 

cpotato2001

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No one mentioned it could be 180*out of time?

With your harmonic balancer lined up and the pointer lined up in the advance unit (4 bolt window),make sure you can see the red-scored tooth under the fuel shut off cap. The key here is that you pull the valve cover toward the rad and the valve is closed on the front cyl. That is tdc.
Would it fire and run 180 out? It does run and drive just NO power at all



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frank8003

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Are WE sure that the HH head to injector lines are installed as they should be.
Not to wonder, it will run. It will run like poop but it will run.
This is a no labor, no cost check.
 

texas30cal

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When bringing it up to tdc on no1 it should work like any 4 cycle. I work on gas engines of all kinds and I use this all the time, watch the no 1 intake valve open, then close, after it closes the mark on the balancer will becoming around to the pointer, as the mark is getting closer the piston is getting closer to tdc, if the exhaust valve moves you went too far. At this point IF the valves are adjusted correctly they should both have slack in them. Just my .02$ but I've taught many people how to find tdc this way , it's easy and reliable once you understand it.
 
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