Engine Swap

[DoubleVision]

New guy here. This is my first post. I`ve always loved military trucks.
My father was in the military 33 years and I remember fondly all the times he took me for a ride in a army truck. I`ve always wanted one and I know of a fellow here in town that buys Deuce`s and sell`s them. I plan to purchase one and bob tail it. I`m wanting to find out if a engine swap is difficult. I would like to drop a small block chevy in one with a TH350 tranny and a MP205 transfer case. I started working on cars as a kid, I`ve been involved in drag and mud racing. I`ve did many engine swaps in vehicles such as a chevy vega and Jeeps that were on the difficult side and many modifications were needed. I`ve never swapped a diesel for a gas engine. It looks like a Deuces engine bay is plenty ample enough for a small block and I`ll enjoy the challenge. If anyone can give me any tips on it that will make it easier I`d be greatly appreciative. Also are the Michelin X tires any good in mud? I love the old NDT military tires but the Michelin`s have a aggressive look of there own and likely have better steering control in mud due to having lugs instead of cut grooves. Thanks for any info.
DV

 

[Westech]

well a th350 will hold up for about a month in a 10K pound truck. Your just going to burn that up. If you get a th400 and build it, it should hold up but you might want to think about a 4 speed like a 4L80 or a built 700R4. A 350SB will be a tad on the light side you might want to think about a big block. Even a tall deck 427 or something, The valves can handle the high load with out burning and that engine is fitted better to move a large truck. (more low end torque). I know you can build a 350Sb to make the power but your going to have to make RPM's to get a SB to make power. The old saying "there is no replacement for displacement" kinda falls in to play with this one.
As a 15 year ASE Tech I think a BB would be best if your going to go out and play with it, I just think a SB will fall short on the torque department and going to strain it. Yes it will move the truck for sure but use a engine that was designed to move that much weight.

 

[tm america]

people have put all different motors in them but a small block probably not high on the list of motors i would choose .these trucks are heavy even bobbed you probably want the torque of a big block and a 350 trans isnt gonna hold up very good to that kind of weight and the transfer case in the deuce sits almost straight up and down and a 205 lays on its side if you try to run a 205 you'll probably end up with some issues from lack of lube since only the front output gear will be sitting in oil and they are only splash lube.and why switch the transfercase it is a divorced setup which allows you to run any 2x4 trans .the transfer case in the deuce is syncronised to which the 205 isnt so the 205 would be a huge down grade from stock

 

[DoubleVision]

Thanks for the info. I wasn`t aware any trans would bolt in so I`ll leave the factory transfer case in. The small block in mind is a 383 chevy with a 3.750 stroke, 6 inch rods, Vortec heads, Small RV roller cam, Quadrajet carb, dual plane intake, small tube headers on a 10:1 compression ratio. On dyno tests it makes over 400 ft lbs of torque from 2000 to 5000 RPM.
There are some big blocks around here but guys treat them like they are gold. The lowest priced one`s I`ve found in over 10 years was $850 for a 454 that required a full rebuild. I suppose I can look around for a big block but it`s not likely I`ll find one in my price range. I`ll use a TH400 to handle the transmission duties as I have access to one easily. Thanks for the info guys.

 

[Dan6wd]

Doublevision, I have pics of a duece, that was converted to an oldsmobile 455. If you would like to take a look, pm me your email address. I could post them here, but I'd have to size each one as to male sure it complied with SS picture requirements.

 

[tm america]

i have a 454 and 400 trans i'm selling i'd like to get 700 for both they have 50000 miles on the and you can hear them run

 

[GoHot229]

454, 440 or 429/460 might be a better choice with a truck trans, 4-5 speed manual shift. Theres a member in here with a Dodge 440 somewhere'or other, search 440 Mopar, it should come up. Summit has a 502 'Towing Motor' with big torque numbers, probably from the standpoint of eas of parts nationwide and reliability a better choice than the rest. Dodge made the 413 in a truck configuration, also a 361 BB that hooked up to the Allison. The Allison was used in alot of Dodge powered school busses, 40+ footers, from the 60's. Gas will get you about 5 MPG in a Deuce.....something to think about. But a BB with nice headers and exhaust sure would make music.

 

[wreckerman893]

If you are close to Gadsden, AL, I have a deuce without bed that is begging to be bobbed.....good runner and very reasonable price.
If you don't want the engine, the price would be even better.
It is cosmeticaly challenged but would love to go home with you.
PM for details.

 

[bryan70546]

why not just leave it the way it is.

 

[tm america]

if he lelf it how it is this post would be in the deuce section not the deuce mod and hot rodding sectioni'm not one for bobbing a prefectly good 6x6 but engine mods are nice as long as you dont mind spending alot more to opperate the truck .if you want to build a fast mud truck just start with a dodge ,chevy or ford they are light easy to get more power out of and then lift it and stick some deuce axles under it bobbing never made much sense to me since you end up with a 10000lb under powered truck with limited suspesion travel due to the spring being made for a heavier truck

 

[Dan6wd]

Arunning 454 and trans for 700!!! That's a steal!! People around here have been paying 700.00 for a 454 that would need rebuilding. I would jump all over that deal If it were not for that cadillac 500 I'm building. That would be good for his duece. A stock 1970 cadillac 500 makes 400hp and 550 Ftlbs of torque, stock!

 

[tm america]

that would be cool cadillac motor ac power windows and door locks he could crome out the thing paint it pink and everything sorry got carried away on the caddy thing it would be different and pobably work nice till you went to the gas pump at a whooping 2 mpg.i would just go with a cummins kick the fuekl up a little have 400hp and 1000ft lb of torque and get 15mpg but have fun what ever route you go

 

[saddamsnightmare]

September 6th, 2009.

Dear Doublevision:


Whoever sells yu those gasoline engines is gonna really love the replacement
business you're going to be giving him, as there has yet to be created a gasoline engine, small block or large, that could handle a deuce's weight and power requirements. They were originally built with very large displacement industrial gasoline engines, but by 1965 the Army went to the multifuel diesels for a reason, and that was torque and economy.
Having driven an equivalent weight C-70 bus with a 350 and manual transmission, I can tell you the engine was shot by 41,000 miles. I'd stick with the diesel.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[Dan6wd]

Actually, Tm is probably right. the price you would pay for fuel over a 3 year period would equate to the price of a well built, other specific engine. I like Tm's idea of leaving it diesel. You can actually take out the starter, adapter plate ,and bellhousing adapter from a chevy powered school bus with a gas engine and mate your chevy engine to the duece 5 speed, but we all know a 300 horse engine would eat the spicer. I, personally, like my multi!!

 

[DoubleVision]

Well after getting everyone`s thoughts on this I am appreciative.
I`ve abandoned the small block idea and decided I`d speak with my brother in law and nephew about it. We came up with a plan.
My nephew has a 1968 caddy 472 that runs but is in need of a rebuild. I`ve searched around and found caddy parts and already being familiar with them I know there weaknesses so I already know what parts I`ll have to replace. 2 MPG don`t bother me much as it won`t have to travel far from where I live. With a bore size of 4.300 and a stroke depth of 4.060 this engine came stock with 375 horsepower at 4400 RPM and 525 ft Lbs. of torque at 3000 RPM. We`ll more than likely drop a caddy 500 crank off in it and With a few mods it`ll put out well over 450 horses and 650 ft lbs of torque which should be more than enough to do the job.
Nobody around here uses Deuce`s except for logging companies and I think it`s a shame to see them being abused, as loggers treat there vehicles like crap. I thought it would be unique to show up at the local mud fests in a Deuce, even if it don`t go into any mud at all, just to have one and the instant respect it gets as nobody else has one around here.

 

[GoHot229]

I suggest you do a search here on the forum, there are about 4-5 in-depth threads in here about just such an idea. And it seems in the final real life chouce, that this choice falls by the way-side ultimatly, lack of actual type and needed horspower and torque. Sure a Big Block can make the big HP numbers, but the torque is what turns the tires. A Deuce comes to life just off idle and builds up to 2,000 + some odd torque, the key is "just off idle". It builds qiuckly and offers the stump pulling power to accelerate briskly in the lower gears and be sufficient in top gear. Other than the Bobber Guys here, your asking the wrong question for this forum. Most members are "Purists" in that Modifications that you suggest are only something to talk about around a campfire, with no real entention of ever actually doing it, rather in the realm of "what if" and "awww, your nuts, why you wan'a ruin it". So what I'm saying is, its less than usefull to ask the majority of Deuce Lovers as they'r looking to be as close to 'era' vehicles as they are able. None-the-less there are others here who, like you, dream of a "what if" in their goal to have a real head turner for the Hot-Rod crowd. Well this is just my opinion, but I think it more or less follows the thoughts of most Deuce owners. .........................Noting you'r above post, remember that the Deuce trans is rated at X amount of torque, stock is 350 some odd numbers, and the Deuce trans might well handel a third more, but then you start really diminishing reliability and strenght. Another thought that comes to mind, I 'spose if it were a Bobber, you would significantly be modifying it twords your goal and loosing alot of weight, all in your favor with a re-power plan. But if you always taking off like a bat out'a "that place" then you'll find the limits real fast........$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ultimatly.

 

[DoubleVision]

In that case forget it. What do you think I am a kid? You also didn`t read my other posts very well had you then you would have paid closer attention to what I said. It seems to me your the purist as you seem to be the one telling me I can`t do this or won`t do that. Yeah you gotta love that campfire talk. I`ve done more rebuilds and engine swaps already than I care to remember and a deuce to me is just another challenge but from people like you it can`t be done. I don`t look at what can`t be done, I look at what will be done. And when in these days you got guys stuffing small blocks in Volkswagens pretty much says the skies the limit. I`m well aware of what torque is and I`ve already pointed that out. Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars. German tiger tanks V12 hemi engines put out 700 horses and over 1000 ft lbs. of torque and look at the weight they moved, and it was done with gears, which is what multiplies that torque. The army didn`t plan on the speed of the deuce and as is it`s severely underpowered, they counted on gear reduction to meet those ends and yeah why not use a diesel? How about the 50`s GMC deuces that came with straight 6 gas engines? Low RPM torque is what they were after. I don`t see why a caddy V8 can`t do the same thing when it`s torque peak is at 3000 RPM, how long will it take the engine to reach that RPM? a diesel won`t reach it with coming unglued. However, I`ll make sure I keep with me what can be done, and you can keep with you what can`t. As for the rest of you that were nice and respectable my best to you. Thanks for the pics of the 455 in the deuce Dan. Hot rodders got no place in diesel land I see.

 

[eldgenb]

In that case forget it. What do you think I am a kid? You also didn`t read my other posts very well had you then you would have paid closer attention to what I said. It seems to me your the purist as you seem to be the one telling me I can`t do this or won`t do that. Yeah you gotta love that campfire talk. I`ve done more rebuilds and engine swaps already than I care to remember and a deuce to me is just another challenge but from people like you it can`t be done. I don`t look at what can`t be done, I look at what will be done. And when in these days you got guys stuffing small blocks in Volkswagens pretty much says the skies the limit. I`m well aware of what torque is and I`ve already pointed that out. Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars. German tiger tanks V12 hemi engines put out 700 horses and over 1000 ft lbs. of torque and look at the weight they moved, and it was done with gears, which is what multiplies that torque. The army didn`t plan on the speed of the deuce and as is it`s severely underpowered, they counted on gear reduction to meet those ends and yeah why not use a diesel? How about the 50`s GMC deuces that came with straight 6 gas engines? Low RPM torque is what they were after. I don`t see why a caddy V8 can`t do the same thing when it`s torque peak is at 3000 RPM, how long will it take the engine to reach that RPM? a diesel won`t reach it with coming unglued. However, I`ll make sure I keep with me what can be done, and you can keep with you what can`t. As for the rest of you that were nice and respectable my best to you. Thanks for the pics of the 455 in the deuce Dan. Hot rodders got no place in diesel land I see.

well said, I don't post my mods on here anymore due to the same attitude given to you.

 

[Westech]

man.. it seams like every post there is some one attacking someone for something. He asked us for advice and we gave it to him. He can take or leave what he thinks is best, but to attack? come on boys and girls play nice. Man I getting sick of all the crap. I truly think it may be time to start removing members in grater numbers who act in a vicious manor.

 

[Ruppster]

Dodge made the 413 in a truck configuration, also a 361 BB that hooked up to the Allison. The Allison was used in alot of Dodge powered school busses, 40+ footers, from the 60's. Gas will get you about 5 MPG in a Deuce.....something to think about. But a BB with nice headers and exhaust sure would make music.

I've been toying with the idea of a 413/440 in a bobbed M35 for a year now. I have a 361 with a NP540 5 speed trans from a Dodge C700. I also have a Dodge CT800 dump truck with a 413/Spicer 5652A combo. Was thinking of using a 440 block with the truck heads for a little more cubic inches. The clutch setup with both engines is hydraulic and the clutch is something like 13 inches. The trick with using a 413 from a heavy duty Dodge truck versus a 413 from an RV is the crankshaft. The main difference is the number of bolts that hold the flywheel to the crank (6 on the RV 413 and 8 on the truck 413). Not sure if the 361 is 6 or 8 on the crank. Guess I will find out when I pull the NP540 from the 361.

Both transmissions above are direct drive in 5th with a 1st gear in the 7:1 range. So with either tranny I would lose the overdrive from the M35 trans but that would be compensated for with the use of larger tires.

Dodge used Allison MT-40, AT-540, and MT-640 series transmissions in school bus and truck chassis. The problem is finding the special bellhousing to connect one to a Dodge big block. Your best bet would be to find a rusty old chassis with the two already together and raid the combo from it.

Ruppster
www.dodge-semis.com