Engine Swap

[tm america]

i say if you want to do it just do it if you want oppinions post it here we will make sure to give you advise and a hard time if we can

 

[randyscycle]

I don't see too many obstacles here, except for fabrication.

Mounts and such are pretty easy. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is mounting of the air compressor to run the brake system assist. Again, not a huge deal, but still something to consider. You're also going to either need to go with a 24V starter and charging system for the powerplant of choice, or end up with a 12V conversion on the truck if you use anything with a computer.

If I were to embark on this, I'd probably go with a Cummins 6BT and matching transmission, personally. I've had big gassers, and they are OK, but the fuel mileage and lack of power was always a drag in something like a big truck. Especially when you went to tow something.

Most importantly though, have fun doing it!

 

[DUECE-COUPE]

i think it is interesting that some one can just join (sept 2009), ask for advice, and then get nasty to the one that dissagree with what he wants to do. If you have such an affection for the caddie engine, use it, but don't get nasty to someone trying to give you the advice you requested. this site and the members of it have a wealth of knowledge that you acknowledged by posting your request for information. consider that before you post another request for info since your past behavior has left some thinking you are just a nug with nothing to offer the rest of but attitide

 

[spicergear]

I've had a 427TD BBC in an 8,000 lb M715 for years now. It was road legal early on and did very well power-wise. I was even very happy pulling an M105 trailer with a Bridgeport J-Head Milling machine and a Kent surface grinder in one shot. That load was 12- 13,000 lbs and it did okay. I think that engine would be great in a bobbed deuce with it's factory 240hp. It would definately get pulled down in a full deuce with a load...but there are always nice power adders. Heck a 'jimmy huffer' would be sweet on one! This is the modification and hot-rodding board...lets see what can be done!

 

[DEATH DEUCE]

Bigger is better

Hot rodding = bigger, faster, more power. What about a 5 ton power plant? Thats hot rod. Has this been done?

 

[JTugwell]

i think it is interesting that some one can just join (sept 2009), ask for advice, and then get nasty to the one that dissagree with what he wants to do. If you have such an affection for the caddie engine, use it, but don't get nasty to someone trying to give you the advice you requested. this site and the members of it have a wealth of knowledge that you acknowledged by posting your request for information. consider that before you post another request for info since your past behavior has left some thinking you are just a nug with nothing to offer the rest of but attitide

well put. while I myself think the concept of a big cammed out v8 would be cool in a deuce. you also have to keep in mind that it takes on average double the HP's from a gas motor to equal the power of a diesel. so you would need around 300 hp just to break even. so what do you want? 500-600 hp. keep in mind we are talking about a vehicle that i wouldnt race for pinks in a 1/8 mile drag race against Lance Armstrong on a huffy. if you want a deuce to stay true to its roots, and do what it was designed to do then a diesel engine is just the more economical way to go hands down. keep in mind when you ask for advise, or opinions thats exactly what you get. its nothing personal. just people trying to help.

 

[DoubleVision]

I apologize it was seen as if I got nasty with someone, I would not have had they not gotten nasty with me. I`ve been a member of Hotrodders.com since 2002 and I have over 6,000 posts there. It`s the largest hot rodding site on the net. It seems to me like I would have already been put out had I been nasty there or if I didn`t have anything to give in return. To be told I`m dreaming and that I`ll never do it is getting nasty to me, as it`s negative, instead of telling me I`m a person who talks and never does something also says I am being judged and you don`t even know me to judge me. You don`t know what I`ve did in my life, you don`t know my mechanical ability, you don`t know who I am as a person. I am honest and that perhaps is the problem, in todays world honesty is rare and many people don`t like me because I am honest but I`m supposed to believe that i`m the one with the problem? Telling me I can`t do something and that it`s campfire talk makes me try that much harder to prove one wrong as I don`t know the words "can`t be done" If you want me to leave this site and not come back I will, I will just as well get a deuce and find out what CAN be done. As for the 24 volt system I`ll find a way around that, as for mounts and fabrication being a hot rodder is all about fabrication and finding a way to get the job done. Again as for all that are helpful thanks, I am really appreciative.

 

[mudguppy]

i think it is interesting that some one can just join (sept 2009), ask for advice, and then get nasty to the one that dissagree with what he wants to do....

i think it is interesting that one can ask an honest question looking for valuable input on the Modification and Hot-Rodding forum, get garbage responses such as "leave it alone" and the like, and then someone else has the nerve to back up said garbage posts because the OP is a newbie and should "respect the knowledge that can be found on this board". this knowledge wasn't offered, but rather it seems that a newbie is supposed to earn it.

since when does join date, post count, status, or any other of that meaningless crap have anything to do with the ability to solicit and receive useful advice and, more importantly, refute total crap responses that have no business even being posted (in the, again, Modification and Hot-Rodding forum)???

i agree w/ eldgenb - this high-and-mighty attitude displayed by some of the members, senior even, is some of the worst i've seen on numerous boards.



to the OP - don't get discouraged just because a few old codgers think that their way is the only way. i'm with you - your truck, do what you like.

my advice, if you're going to go gasser, the industrial blocks may not be a bad place to start. but rather than that [small] y-block cheby stuff, take a look for some industrial Ford 534 v8's. typically you'll find them in COE firetrucks - these babies have got torque for days, and i'm talking diesel-like torque!!! i pulled one out to use as a project motor and i think it weighed in at about 1400 lbs.

i found out the motor was rebuild and in perfect condition - even had a brand new holley 950 double-pumper on it. but once deployments began, i ran out of time so i donated it to a small-town FD that was in need of a replacement motor for one of their engines.

i didn't think i could get a custom cam made locally, but i did talk to a shop that said they have successfully reground those cams +0.040" lift and gained quite a bit of pep. coupled with a better intake (fabbed from sheet metal), there was a good bit more potential. my guess-timates would take it to about 300hp and almost 700 ft-lbs. no way to know for certain.

you probably wouldn't pass a gas pump, though...

however, if you don't want to try your luck w/ an industrial motor, definitely go big block. as much as i hate to say it, a BB cheby is probably your best bet just because of the lower parts costs. main goal should be displacement. in the gasser world, there is no replacement for displacement. it won't cost much more to get a rotating assembly for 557+ cid as it would for 500+ cid.

talk to stroker engine builders about your application, and they'll be able to help you choose the right heads or head mods, cam, intake, and fuel delivery options to help your big cubic inches correctly get that truck moving. broad and flat power bands are what you're after.

you probably wouldn't pass a gas pump, though...

if you go auto trans, you'll want it built for the torque and gvw (obviously), but you'll also want a torque converter with a stall speed as low as possible. remember, the more torque you produce, the more the stall speed increases. throw 400 ft-lbs at an 1800 rpm converter and you'll be alright. throw 650 at it, and you'll be closer to 2200.

and if you do go auto, go OD / lockup. 4L80's are relatively plentiful and cheap to build now. stand alone controllers aren't real pricey and are worth their weight in gold.

lastly - good luck and take lots of pics!!!!

 

[chaplain]

I like this doublevision guy. Question if you had two identical deuces side by side would you see one? Just kidding but truthfully Don't get disgruntled about the assault. All that I ask is you post lots of Pics but as for me I'm a multifuel/diesel kinda guy. One of the reasons that I like this forum is the ingeneuity that lots of these guys use in their designs. Necessity is the mother of invention so feel free to brag with you photo's all you want we might just copy your ideas someday.

 

[spicergear]

...this high-and-mighty attitude displayed by some of the members...

I left the M715Zone because of crap like that and haven't looked back. The board turned sour.

Anyway...as far as Big Block Chevy's and adding cubes to them; one of the best deals running used to be to get a National Dragster magazine, turn it over then go two pages in from the back. Parts galore! Long blocks, short blocks, rotating assemblies...usually all 540 or more that may need freshened up. If you want to go big with the BBC's you need to snag a BowTie block, Merlin, Motown...etc block capable of handling a 4.5"+ bore size. The 502 is another good candidate if you can grab one of those. Already set up with a 4.47" bore...a nice little .030" over clean up and a 1/4" stroker crank (stock is 4" -same as 454's) and you're at 540". Step up to 4.375 = 557". 4.5" stroke = 572"...it's exponential cubic bliss!!! Um...anyway, Jegs, Summit, PAW, etc all sell stroker kits with cranks/rods/pistons and for a truck/grunt engine, Eagle parts would work great. Cost vary depending on what you decide.

Another key is to NOT go crazy with the intake port size on the heads. A set of Hi Perf ovals will make a LOT of grunt. Oh, and don't be misinformed about the small port 'truck heads' that are supposed to be on 'truck' blocks. I've dug up a bunch of 427TD (tall deck) engines and never once did they have those heads on them. I'm not saying they won't...but you'll find those heads more on the pick up truck 454's and low hp 454 marine engines. A stock 427/454 block will take a bunch of grinding to get a big crank to fit too.

 

[Parker2]

If your just looking for a gas engine how about a 478 v6 or the like. They had great torque and didnt require high rpms. I know they could move a duece with no problem. I dont know if that is something that is in your line of thinking but it was a thought.

 

[darknessvanquished]

I don't know guys. The multi-fuel only puts out like 130hp and 305ft/lbs of torque, so it is not a great performing engine by any stretch. My 4.0 (242ci) 6cyl in my Jeep TJ puts out 60 more HP and almost as much torque. lol. The Deuce is seriously underpowered. If it weren't for the major gear reduction in the axles and tranny/xfer case, the thing wouldn't be driveable. With that said, a engine swap is really necessary if you intend to use this truck for more than the occasional trip to the woods or town parade.

Almost 14K lbs is alot of weight to move around.....so yes, I say go BB if you want a gas burner. A SB can be built to make torque, but it is easier and cheaper to do with a BB. Build your BB with the emphasis on torque, so that means staying small on the cam duration (no more than 240 @.050) and running a set of oval port heads (if you go Chevy) and a dual plane intake. Now, you will exceed the Deuce's trans torque capacity with even a mild BB, so you will have to swap in another HD manual trans or if you wanted to go auto, a very built TH400 with the biggest trans cooler they make or a bombproof 4L80. There is a company out there that has a version of the 4L80 that doesn't require any electronics to make it work. Just google 4L80 and you'll find the place. As mentioned, gas mileage is going to be miserable with a gas burner, but are you really worried about gas mileage when you drive a Deuce?

I personally would upgrade mine with a modern turbo diesel and HD auto trans out of a wrecked medium duty rig for better than stock performance and probably better fuel economy......and I just like the sounds diesels make. lol

 

[tm america]

there,s no such thing as a bombproof 4l80e the input shaft will break if you put any kind of power to it we built a set of em for a baja 1000 truck running a built viper motor both of them twisted the input shaft and there is noone that makes a stronger one . you could have one made out of better metal but it will still be limited by size unles you remake the od drum and find another way to run the feed hole for the lockup which causes a stress point in the shaft

 

[darknessvanquished]

4L80E Performance Transmission from PATC ,4L80E is the place I was referring to.

 

[DUECE-COUPE]

I think we need to be realistic and understand that most of us will NEVER load 5000 lbs of stuff in our trucks and drive cross country to some far off destination and return empty. the nice thing about the m35a2 engine is it is a simple to maintain power plant that for the most part will still be running long after the truck has rusted out from under it. That being said, it is more likely to be a short life for the truck that gets an engine swap to something that make it go faster, since deuces were not designed to go fast, they were designed to be like the lil pink bunny and keep going and going and going. I think it is safe to say that to make it go faster is to expidite your own demise, and if that is your intent, please make me the benifiary of your estate, so I can buy more slow steady deuces to drive.

 

[tm america]

hmm dont know of anyone that makes a better input shaft and they break around 600 hp with any kind of load but when you put big hp in a heavy truck the tires cant spin as easy and something has to give i was building 400's for moster patrol and bear foot for years they broke everything you could think of hardened shafts cases hardened clutch hubs .there is no such thing as a bombproof trans only ones that are harder to break but 14000lbs makes it alot easier to do

 

[Rattlewagon]

A 6bt would be my first choice. second would be a DT466.

As for the transmission, I am wide open. I have no idea which gearbox would be right for a deuce...

 

[tm america]

most of the time my truck is going it is loaded sometimes i haul as much as 40000+ and its the brakes that need attention first then power .but theres nothing wrong with making them faster you just have to do all the things that it takes to make it right .and a deuce at 30mph with an inexperienced driver can kill a school bus full of kids

 

[mudguppy]

A 6bt would be my first choice. second would be a DT466.

As for the transmission, I am wide open. I have no idea which gearbox would be right for a deuce...

i concur.

however, back to the OP, serious thought needs to be given to what transmission will be used behind a gasser - and i bring this up with regard to fitment, mainly lengthwise.

remember, the duece 5spd case is only about 16.5" long with a jack shaft of about 7". that jackshaft shouldn't get any shorter than it already is. so, most of the auto's that we're talking about are going to be quite a bit longer than the 5 spd, even when a short tailhousing is put on.

i know that a BBC is going to be much shorter in length than the 42" worth of MF block in there, but if you've got an auto that's going to be around 28"-ish long, you've pretty much eaten up your block length savings.

it's doubtful than a MD auto will fit length or width-wise - but i haven't really looked into it.

however, all this length smack can be alleviated by relocating the transfer rearward. i pondered this for about 30 seconds after i saw how much work that would actually be, not including extending the already pretty long front driveshaft.

that's why i settled on my choice of 6bta/nv4500 - 36" long block and the nv can be made to 19.5" OAL.

lastly, just about any good'ol bulletproof 4spd will fit with room to spare. a healthy BBC backed by, say, an sm465 or np425 would be a nice setup.

 

[spicergear]

The deuce trans will handle more than 300 pounds of torque. I'm not going to drop names of people that know this or manufacture gears but there's usually a 2x safety margin. So you should be able to get away with that 240hp 427TD making it's 400-some ft/lbs for a damn long time. I have that engine in my M715 with the deuce 3053A and Rockwells. Put 8,000 miles on it. Yes it's lighter at 8,000 lbs, I know-

Better example; my deuce crane truck tipping the scales at 18,000 lbs with a 225hp CAT V8. What kind of torque do you think a 636 cubic inch V8 diesel engine makes? Right around 600 ft/lbs -you got it- That engine has been in that truck for 5-6 years now. Pulled several deuces 70 or so miles on the towbar which is a 32,000 combination. I did recently have a transmission problem BUT there's a little backstory to it which I'll get to in a minute. When I pulled the transmission out and popped the cover all looked good except where the failure had been. When I got the truck I was told fluids were all just changed, etc, etc. I trusted the previous owner ...and didn't check the transmission oil. I changed the engine and cold weather hit. I couldn't move the truck one day or let the clutch out in neutral without it trying to stall the engine. The transmission had frozen. I heated the case with a torch for maybe 20 mins and pulled drain plug. Well over a gallon of water, prolly closer to two, came out and about a cup of oil. I had used the truck for a while already and driven it 200miles upon initial purchase. It had been a rescue truck.

Aside from the transmission always not liking to go into 5th gear, the input bearing failed and took out the input retainer. I absolutely refuse to believe that my engine swap did that when there's no way to determine the water time table. Frankly it should be a testiment to the toughness of these that it held up with water for that long. Another thing to add...this was no later model transmission. The tag on the tranny still said 3052, not 3053. It was a conversion transmission so how old do you think that makes it? Forty...how many??

My truck, with 4000+ lbs of crane is still a little faster than a stock truck but will out pull a stock truck on the big hills. I've done this several times with my buddy's stock deuce. Middle of the hill and I start putting space on him and once I crest and grab 5th...I'll be holding back for him to catch up. The 'new' transmission shifts better than the old one had ever worked! Inside looked like new too-