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exhaust back pressure

m-35tom

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ok, i start this topic because i am interested in back pressure only and not really the type or kind of muffler involved. that is to say i want to scientifically experiment with various muffler systems, but want to start with knowledge of how much pressure is ok and where the power will be affected. this is for the ldt engine but i assume most turbo diesels would have the same specs. now it is common knowledge that the pressure drops as the gasses cool, so the best muffler seems to be as far away from turbo as possible. i want to design a muffler that will go inside the top stack without showing and without losing hp. the goal is to drop 6db.
 

jwaller

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you want the least you can get. Ie open exhaust will give the highest performance on turbo'd engines. backpressure will increase EGT's and lower power. the eng has all the backpressure it needs and it's supplied by the turbo.
 

AJMBLAZER

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Re: RE: exhaust back pressure

jwaller said:
you want the least you can get. Ie open exhaust will give the highest performance on turbo'd engines. backpressure will increase EGT's and lower power. the eng has all the backpressure it needs and it's supplied by the turbo.
That's what I've heard many turbo diesel guys say. The turbo supplies all the necessary scavenging effect that the engine would need.
 

Jones

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You might also look into slide-in baffle assys. Diesels don't seem to like ANY back pressure, so some way to cool the exhaust gases or give them a larger diameter pipe/stack to expand into thereby reducing the exhaust gas to atmospheric over-pressure differential would be the way to go. Noise/sound is nothing more than any pressure over atmospheric.
In the 60s there was a brief flurry of excitement over a device that was an elaborate tail pipe tip that even got to the testing stage by being mounted on city buses and delivery trucks. It consisted of a trumpet bell shaped pipe with an insert shaped like two cones joined at their large ends that sat in the bell. The insert was adjusted in and out to find the spot at which the exhaust gases generated a venturi effect... basically it made the exhaust pull itself out of the tailpipe by it's own bootstraps. If I remember correctly, it's weight and complexity killed it even though it did produce the predicted results.
 

saddamsnightmare

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January 12th, 2008.

Gentlemen:

On the subject of back pressure vs. noise reduction, permit me to weight in with some of my experiences. A gentleman I knew had an ex-Louisville & Nashville Railroad office car that he refitted with a 60KW
generator set driven by a Perkins diesel engine. Unfortunately he failed to calculate the back pressure on 50' of tailpipe to the end of the car and up to the roof. The result? Burned out exhaust valves and inefficient operation.
Some marine and railroad diesel engines were designed historically to use a drum type exhaust manifold on top of the engine, and the firing order was so arranged that exhaust impulses from two different cylinders would be emitted into opposite ends of the drum at the same instant, with the exhaust stack in the middle and of sufficient diamter to handle venting the exhaust with little or no back pressure. The Result? Noise reduction with minimal back pressure resistance due to the pulses just about cancelling each other out almost completely. The principal is the same as white noise of the same range from an opposite direction cancelling out the original noise source.
Unfortunately for us, the LDT465 and the normally aspirated versions do not seem to admit of much restriction in the exhaust system before a price is paid in reduced efficiency and power output, as the firing order and exhaust collector systems seem to be set in stone in regards to their design specifications. Perhaps a reengineered exhaust system, or a power plant and transmission replacement with a more modern unit would be in order to achieve the goals of making these trucks more user and dare I say it, environmentally friendly.
Apparently according to Mr. Doyle, the Army tried to get permission in the late 80's or early '90's to mnufacture several thousand new engines for these trucks, and the EPA didn't buyit, hence the gradual replacement of the G-742 series trucks in the Army inventory. I appreciate the concern for the environment as beingof necessary importance, but if these were Tactical Trucks, I might point out that a war is pretty hard on the environment too-
! Look at how dernier a resort downtown Bagdad has become lately, but then it probably could stand some urban renewal (B-52's do come to mind). In any case I will keep an eye out as to how you gentlemen resolve the question as it is quite pertinent to the operation and possibly the preservation of our trucks.

Thanks Again,
I remain, Sincerely,

Kyle F. McGrogan
1963 Mercedes Benz S404.114 Unimog (Swiss)
1971 KAiser Jeep M35A2 Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Vietnam and Desert Storm Verteran Deuce.
 

WillWagner

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I'm a bit confused on the maximum back pressure. Remember, I've been doing the diesel repair thing for a while now. From as early as I can remember, Cummins spec for maximum allowable exhaust back pressure has been 3 in.hg. for all of their engines, from the 4B to the big K's. Time goes on, 2002 comes up. Published max back pressure is still at 3 in.hg., but when you check it on the dyno, the VGT nozzle open...max flow thru the turbo, it's around 2 in.hg. When it closes, creating the needed pre turbo back pressure to force the exh gasses thru the EGR system, the post turbo back pressure goes up to a steady 6 in.hg. Nobody at the factory can tell me why, but they say not to worry about it, it's normal.....no loss in power, torque or acceleration. Time continues, 2007 rolls around, stricter emission standards. The engines have stayed basically the same with slight EGR system mods and the addition of aftertreatment...catalyst and DPF. The published back pressure is still at 3 in.hg. Check it on the dyno and you get a steady 6 in.hg., and if you go into the ECM and check the aftertreatment history, you can see that there is more than that some of the time, but the engine goes thru the re-generation cycle and it drops back to around 6. No burnt valves, no low power complaints, apparently, no excessive black smoke or there would be cat face plugging faults. I don't know what to think any more. :roll:
 

m-35tom

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OK, 3 in hg = 1.5 psi and 6 in hg = 3 psi so there is some pressure. my unimog U1300L has a muffler and it is as quiet as any car, but is a 366 cid turbo diesel. i guess i should measure the pressure on it. i just want a starting point to work from, i have several ideas and prototypes one of which is on now and is quiet and looks like stock exhaust. how much pressure / loss of power is gotten from the 'napa' muffler??
 

bottleworks

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Re: RE: exhaust back pressure

m-35tom said:
how much pressure / loss of power is gotten from the 'napa' muffler??
I can't see how the Napa muffler would cause the back pressure to raise. It's a straight through muffler. In fact, I would lean towards it lowering back pressure because of the increased surface area to dissipate the heat. Less heat would lower the pressure.

For illustration purposes, could someone post a picture of the inside of the muffler. I didn't ever take an inside picture and I don't want to pull mine off the truck. :)
 

AJMBLAZER

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Re: RE: exhaust back pressure

SasquatchSanta said:
What are cat face plugging faults?
If it's the same for general automotive stuff it's when the engine is running so poorly it's coating the first layer of the cat's filler and clogging it.
 

Rebelpride

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Muffler

Tom,
There is a company called Grand Rock, they make exhausts for big trucks and in their catalog they have a turnout that IS a muffler I do not know or remember the dimensions, but I thought that it was slick when I saw it. You may want to check them out: http://www.grpipes.com/
 

WillWagner

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RE: Muffler

Electronic mufflers. Flow is left to right. Two parts to the muffler, end caps on each end.
1st sensor...cat inlet temp. 2nd sensor...DPF inlet temp. 3rd sensor...DPF outlet temp. See the square lookin sensor with the tubes on it? That's the differential pressure sensor. Combined readings of all the sensors will log a fault that lets you know when the cat is face plugged...but sometimes it lies, and you take it apart and it's clean. HD over the raod stuff is doing great, no issues 'cause they make lots of heat and the system works. Little stuff like package delivery vans and trailer jockys are full of issues 'cause they don't work the engine hard enough.
 

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Rattlehead

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RE: Muffler

WillWagner, you probably know more about this than I do, but I think that the VGT turbos close down more at light load condition, so the backpressure might not be an issue. I do know that they have troubles getting enough EGR flow at idle condtions to meet emissions. Because of this, they now put throttles on the intake, upstream of the EGR input, to choke down the fresh air and force more EGR into the motor when required. This is on light to medium duty trucks, not sure what the big OTR engine builders are doing.

I have seen some specs on how much reduction has been required by the EPA on NOx and particulates, and it is scary. Diesels are now many, many times cleaner than they were just a few years ago. A good thing, but it also adds much cost and complexity. I guess we all better keep these antiques going for many more years.
 

WillWagner

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I can't tell on the '07 engines because they..the VGT actuators, are "smart devices". The '02 - '06 engines, the actuators on the turbo were all over the place, light, moderate or heavy load. Guess it depends on what the ECM decides the EGR pressure needs to be at a given load. Jason, that's straight thru. There should be minimun back pressure, depending on how many bends there are from the exit of the turbo to the muffler.
 

jwaller

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AJMBLAZER said:
Looks like a Cherry Bomb/Glass Pack to me.
yup.. I agree. and if you notice the grate type material on the sides of the pipe this will inhibit flow and cause turbulence. neither are good in any motor esp a diesel. the only way to get equal flow from a muffler is to make sure it's ID is larger than the pipe it's replacing. "Some" muffler mfg's state that their mufflers have equal flow to an open pipe. make sure to check with your muffler mfg before adding it to your system.
 

AJMBLAZER

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Do deuces have mufflers stock? Can't say I ever really looked at that.

I use Cherry Bombs on Big Ugly and my Tracker but then they're cheap and they flow light years better than the stock mufflers did. When/if more money comes around I'll probably go with something better.
 
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