Feasibility of Solar Panel augmentation with existing MEP backup/additive power or just add larger genset?

[Chainbreaker]

My 5 kW MEP-002a with ~7 kW surge capacity work just fine in WINTER, when most of our local utility outages occur, with a little load management since I don't need AC then.

However, we are now facing more & more issues with fire danger out here during our peak hot dry low humidity summer months. The utility companies have resorted to preemptive power shutdowns in dry summer conditions when low humidity coupled with high winds are forecasted above a certain threshold. If its 100+ outside I really would like to have the option of running the whole house AC unit. Last year we had a few days of 100 to 107F days during peak summer fire conditions, thankfully no utility shutdowns during those particular no/low wind conditions. I doubt the MEP-002a would be able to run the household with a soft start kit on the AC unit even with judicious load management.

Thus, I've been on the hunt for a 10 kW MEP-003a (the easiest solution for me) due to parts compatibility with the MEP-002a's & the amassed spares inventory I already have on hand. However, no luck so far on finding a MEP-003a within the area. Locally gensets suddenly seem to all have been snapped up due to a BIG Ice storm a month ago leaving thousands w/o power for weeks!

The thought of investing in Solar Panels with Battery Storage is starting to look somewhat interesting considering the utility company's "Net Billing" solar back-feed credits offered. But the upfront costs are high. My thought is perhaps I should consider biting the bullet & installing solar panels/battery storage with a 10 kw+ upwards rating. I'm thinking that during a summer power outage I could supplement the solar panel's battery storage with my existing 5 kW genset(s) if ever needed due to any insufficient solar conditions & still run whatever I need (AC +...).

Or... I could go on the hunt for a nice MEP-803a for summer use. But then I have two completely different breeds in the "genset stable" to maintain & stock different filters, spares, manuals, knowledge, etc.

Ideas... thoughts?

 

[WWRD99]

I've looked at non grid tie systems for me. There are reasonably priced all in one inverters, 48 volt battery packs and solar panels that aren't crazy expensive and not hard to install out there. Can keep the 5 kw as a charger for it on cloudy days or when they need topped off. Most of the inverters have a connection just for a genset. It's to the point now that installing them isn't a ton of wiring like it used to be with the new style inverters as well.

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[Light in the Dark]

If you are happy with the air cooled platform, which you clearly are, wait and find what you want. I would absolutely consider a non grid tie system as listed above, to supplement what you already have. Especially if you live in a fire prone area. Anything tied to the grid will be an issue in the future. Just a matter of time...

 

[Light in the Dark]

One thing to think about too... if they are already at the stage of utility shutdowns, whose to say they wont have some sort of restriction on the use of generators in private hands during these same times? Overreach is governments middle name.

 

[MarkM]

Be aware of the solar panels rated power as you can cut it in half in the real world. A 100w 12v solar panel will net you on the average five amp at best unless you have a tracking array system that keeps the panels at their best efficiency power production. Don't believe the hype.

I'm just saying

Mark

 

[Jbulach]

First, I know very little, and by no means am l a solar or electrical expert by a long stretch! I know there are charge controllers that have a generator start function for when your house battery bank gets low. Then I think there are large split phase inverter systems that can handle your A/c and use your house batteries for a partial load and pull the balance from the grid/generator. Not sure how to make the generator handle both backup charger and auxiliary load for your a/c though? I think splitting between those duty’s would likely have to be done manual somehow, also would be very expensive and better suited with a “big” solar/battery system as well as an mep803 as soon as possible

 

[Light in the Dark]

I don't want to volunteer them, but I think @kloppk and @cbisson have some knowledge about solar and gensets.

 

[Ray70]

I don't want to volunteer them, but I think @kloppk and @cbisson have some knowledge about solar and gensets.

I think you just did!
I have no idea what a solar setup that meets your criteria would cost, but I'd keep looking for an 003 while you sort things out.
Makes perfect sense for you to have an 002 and 003, even if you end up going with solar in the long run.
Too bad you're way over on the left coast, I've got an 003 that I purchased some time ago, solely for the spare IP but think I will soon go through it and make it a runner rather than part it out.

 

[kloppk]

I do have a non-grid tied solar setup for both augmenting utility power and to silently power the house through most utility outages.
It consists of 1.8 KW of solar panels, MPPT Solar Charge Controller, 14.4 KWH LIFEPO4 48 volt battery bank, and 2 different inverters.
One inverter is a 1.5 KW that is used most of the time. The other is a 7.5 KW inverter charger that can be used switched in when there are larger load demands. That one and also take my 802's power to power the house and charge the battery bank during long power outages.
During outages the battery bank and solar can power the essentials in the house for 1-2 days powering oil heat & oil hot water, refrigerators, microwave, lights, internet, entertainment center, make coffee and run a small oven and hot plate.
Inverter outputs are fed to a 12 circuit transfer switch that I use for load management. During a utility outage I simply flip transfer switch circuits to power the essential loads to keep things humming along silently.
During spring, summer and fall months the solar provides about 20% of my electrical needs.

 

[Light in the Dark]

I think you just did!

Well they could choose to ignore me like my teenagers do

 

[2Pbfeet]

My 5 kW MEP-002a with ~7 kW surge capacity work just fine in WINTER, when most of our local utility outages occur, with a little load management since I don't need AC then.

However, we are now facing more & more issues with fire danger out here during our peak hot dry low humidity summer months. The utility companies have resorted to preemptive power shutdowns in dry summer conditions when low humidity coupled with high winds are forecasted above a certain threshold. If its 100+ outside I really would like to have the option of running the whole house AC unit. Last year we had a few days of 100 to 107F days during peak summer fire conditions, thankfully no utility shutdowns during those particular no/low wind conditions. I doubt the MEP-002a would be able to run the household with a soft start kit on the AC unit even with judicious load management.

Thus, I've been on the hunt for a 10 kW MEP-003a (the easiest solution for me) due to parts compatibility with the MEP-002a's & the amassed spares inventory I already have on hand. However, no luck so far on finding a MEP-003a within the area. Locally gensets suddenly seem to all have been snapped up due to a BIG Ice storm a month ago leaving thousands w/o power for weeks!

The thought of investing in Solar Panels with Battery Storage is starting to look somewhat interesting considering the utility company's "Net Billing" solar back-feed credits offered. But the upfront costs are high. My thought is perhaps I should consider biting the bullet & installing solar panels/battery storage with a 10 kw+ upwards rating. I'm thinking that during a summer power outage I could supplement the solar panel's battery storage with my existing 5 kW genset(s) if ever needed due to any insufficient solar conditions & still run whatever I need (AC +...).

Or... I could go on the hunt for a nice MEP-803a for summer use. But then I have two completely different breeds in the "genset stable" to maintain & stock different filters, spares, manuals, knowledge, etc.

Ideas... thoughts?

I would keep looking for your desired MEP-003; you have many of the spares, and know the '002.

FWIW: We have had wildfire smoke bad enough to cause a 90% reduction in solar output. That drove us to upgrading to a MEP-803A.

One thing with planning a solar+generator+battery that I would recommend is planning on an inverter and battery set sized to be able to take the full output from your generator during a charge cycle (20-80% state of charge). That would enable optimal use of the genset and of the batteries.

We tend to run off batteries overnight during an outage, which is quiet and no oversight needed, using solar to recharge during the day, when there is enough sun. Here many outages occur when there is not a great deal of sun (Wildfire/winter storms). If you want to support winter solar, consider mounting your panels much closer to vertical, or putting them on a south facing fence, i.e. design for peak output Dec/Jan.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Chainbreaker]

Thanks for the great ideas/suggestions!

I will still keep looking for a MEP-003a, or perhaps an 803a, just to consider all sources of 10 kw backup. I like the idea of batteries for nighttime backup situations and possibly to offset some % when on utility power.

Haven't spent a lot of time educating myself on solar/battery installations due to the initial pricing to get in the game. Now that prices have fallen, I'll have to spend some time researching. Anyone got any good Solar/Battery reference sites to recommend?

 

[kloppk]

I purchased most of my solar equipment and batteries from Alte Store. ---> Alte Store
They are about 30 minutes from my house.
They have lots of good videos and articles for those getting into solar.

There is a YouTube channel by Will Prowse. He has hundreds of videos on product reviews of various solar equipment and my "how To" videos. ---> Will Prowse
He also has a website with lots of great info too. ---> Will Prowse Website

 

[blk65brd]

If you need an education, you can check this website out below, there are recommendations for both grid tied and off grid. Our home is a ways north of you in SW Washington and we are off grid, I am working on an 803a to replace a 30KW that is oversized for what we need. We recently changed out a 10 year old 24V Magnum 8KW inverter system to an all in one EG4 18KPV and 3 EG4 Powerwall Lifepo4 batteries, it does have a lot of grid tied features that we won't ever need unless the PUD runs 5 miles of wire for us from the hydro dam lake we live on. In the sumertime we rarely run a generator but here in the PCNWet it is sometimes a daily event charging the batteries up, the new system in the rain will last about 3 days from 100% down to 40% state of charge. We have just replaced 18 185 Watt panels with 8 380 watt panels and will be adding 18 more as weather allows me back up on the roof. Solar panels are Silfab, made here in Washington by former coal miners.
Here is link to website, he also has a lot of videos as well. - https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/

 

[WWRD99]

If you need an education, you can check this website out below, there are recommendations for both grid tied and off grid. Our home is a ways north of you in SW Washington and we are off grid, I am working on an 803a to replace a 30KW that is oversized for what we need. We recently changed out a 10 year old 24V Magnum 8KW inverter system to an all in one EG4 18KPV and 3 EG4 Powerwall Lifepo4 batteries, it does have a lot of grid tied features that we won't ever need unless the PUD runs 5 miles of wire for us from the hydro dam lake we live on. In the sumertime we rarely run a generator but here in the PCNWet it is sometimes a daily event charging the batteries up, the new system in the rain will last about 3 days from 100% down to 40% state of charge. We have just replaced 18 185 Watt panels with 8 380 watt panels and will be adding 18 more as weather allows me back up on the roof. Solar panels are Silfab, made here in Washington by former coal miners.
Here is link to website, he also has a lot of videos as well. - https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/

That's exactly the same kit I was looking at. Can't beat that setup at all.

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[DieselAddict]

A solar hybrid system can be very functionally effective for extending the capacity of a smaller generator BUT it will not be cost competitive with buying a larger generator. I have a decent sized hybrid system using Schneider XW 6848 inverters. They can blend power from battery and Utility/generator. The inverters are about $3,500 each plus more for all the goodies to wire them up. The batteries are in the $1,100 to $1,600 range per 5 kw/hr module (2 minimum needed). If you only need surge or short duration generator support, you can budget around $8k for something that will support 8kw short term load and around 12kw of surge. You can add a second inverter and double those numbers.

Buying a MEP003 like the one I have sitting in the yard would be a lot cheaper. Unfortunately I’m thousands of miles from you.

 

[cbisson]

I don't want to volunteer them, but I think @kloppk and @cbisson have some knowledge about solar and gensets.

I also have a non-grid tied system but I am not off grid. When I say non-grid tied I mean that I don't sell power back to the utility. I can however use the utility to charge my batteries. I have 9.7 KW of solar panels with another 9.7KW going up this week. I have 30 KWH of lifepo4 server rack batteries and 2x Magnum inverters that together can continuously output 8.8 KW and surge to 17KW for starting the well pump etc. I run my entire house with this with the exception of our electric range/oven. Well pump, electric clothes dryer, refrigerator, freezer, etc all powered by solar. I have the system set to transfer the load to grid and charge the batteries if we have a period of little solar production. If the batteries drop to a 20% state of charge it automatically transfers, charges the batteries back to 30% SOC, and then switches back. This way it keeps us running as well as leaving room in the batteries to store the next days solar production. My electric bill is a <20% of what it used to be. The plan for the additional panels going up this week is to increase production in the winter months. In the summer I will be able to produce much more than I can use so I am planning to switch my hot water to solar and will also transfer the pool pump to solar as well. I also may install a transfer switch for the electric stove so I can selectively power it with solar. You have to balance baseline demand and potential surge demands. In the end, I can easily maintain normal life with this system and in the event of a longer term outage I will be able to do everything we need with a little load management. I do not have central AC. We use window units which is no problem.

As for the generator, when necessary I use it to charge the batteries directly using a 100 amp Chargeverter, not through my inverters, so the load on the gen stays constant. The batteries/inverters deal with the ever changing load demand from the house. I set the charger to load my 802a to 80% and it stays there solid as a rock. If I run the generator for 5-6 hours at 80% load it will provide me with roughly 48-52 hours of runtime in the house. I do have the ability to put some loads on gen while others remain on solar but have never had the need.

 

[cbisson]

I purchased most of my solar equipment and batteries from Alte Store. ---> Alte Store
They are about 30 minutes from my house.
They have lots of good videos and articles for those getting into solar.

There is a YouTube channel by Will Prowse. He has hundreds of videos on product reviews of various solar equipment and my "how To" videos. ---> Will Prowse
He also has a website with lots of great info too. ---> Will Prowse Website

All good sources of info Kurt. I would also point people to this site. Go to Playlists and look for Solar Power: Start to finish. https://www.youtube.com/@HomesteadEngineering

My system is very similar to what this person has done, including using the Reliance Controls transfer switches so you can easily choose grid or solar for individual circuits/loads.

 

[2Pbfeet]

I also have a non-grid tied system but I am not off grid. When I say non-grid tied I mean that I don't sell power back to the utility. I can however use the utility to charge my batteries. I have 9.7 KW of solar panels with another 9.7KW going up this week. I have 30 KWH of lifepo4 server rack batteries and 2x Magnum inverters that together can continuously output 8.8 KW and surge to 17KW for starting the well pump etc. I run my entire house with this with the exception of our electric range/oven. Well pump, electric clothes dryer, refrigerator, freezer, etc all powered by solar. I have the system set to transfer the load to grid and charge the batteries if we have a period of little solar production. If the batteries drop to a 20% state of charge it automatically transfers, charges the batteries back to 30% SOC, and then switches back. This way it keeps us running as well as leaving room in the batteries to store the next days solar production. My electric bill is a <20% of what it used to be. The plan for the additional panels going up this week is to increase production in the winter months. In the summer I will be able to produce much more than I can use so I am planning to switch my hot water to solar and will also transfer the pool pump to solar as well. I also may install a transfer switch for the electric stove so I can selectively power it with solar. You have to balance baseline demand and potential surge demands. In the end, I can easily maintain normal life with this system and in the event of a longer term outage I will be able to do everything we need with a little load management. I do not have central AC. We use window units which is no problem.

As for the generator, when necessary I use it to charge the batteries directly using a 100 amp Chargeverter, not through my inverters, so the load on the gen stays constant. The batteries/inverters deal with the ever changing load demand from the house. I set the charger to load my 802a to 80% and it stays there solid as a rock. If I run the generator for 5-6 hours at 80% load it will provide me with roughly 48-52 hours of runtime in the house. I do have the ability to put some loads on gen while others remain on solar but have never had the need.

That sounds like you have engineered a really nice system, congratulations. I especially like your charging setup. Are you on wood heat? Is your hot water a heat pump? Just curious.

Do you have a ballpark of the total cost?

Over the years, I have seen a few Homestead Engineering videos, and they were certainly interesting.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[cbisson]

That sounds like you have engineered a really nice system, congratulations. I especially like your charging setup. Are you on wood heat? Is your hot water a heat pump? Just curious.

Do you have a ballpark of the total cost?

Over the years, I have seen a few Homestead Engineering videos, and they were certainly interesting.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

I do have a wood stove and we use it to augment the FHW oil fired heating system. We don't use wood exclusively but I keep a few cord on hand.
Hot water is currently provided by the oil fired heating system. I am currently looking into heat pump water heaters and may switch over.
Total cost is not pretty. Roughly 30-35k. Could be done cheaper but I got REC panels, Iron Ridge racking, and designed the system for longevity, reliability, and simplicity. There are a lot of all in one inverter/charger/solar charge controllers out there that I chose to avoid and paid the price for doing so.