Florida Permit/Inspection for MEP installation

[LEOK]

The electric company are not the inspectors. The Automatic transfer switches are what requires an inspection and proper signs

 

[mijoe]

Hey there, Florida input here... I can tell you that the municipality is by far the most difficult to predict for what they want to see. In my city, the chief inspector is not an electrician but has clear ideas of what he figures is safe, based on what he's seen done in South FL. Therefore, on a system that has an ATS that cannot possibly physically bridge the Service with the Generator feeds, he requires an additional button on the outside of the building to shut down the generator. So, unfortunately, you need not only Florida expertise, but Jax expertise. I will say, however, that I also have had luck in the past with finding out who my assigned inspector was, and getting some insight from him as to what he expected to see.

 

[LEOK]

Actually that is part of NEC codes. On the service disconnect there is supposed to be sign saying it has an ATS/genset and directions to generator and disconnect at the generator with sign noting disconnect inside here. All gens are supposed to have emergency shutoff. There are several internet write ups on wire sizing, label, offsets etc. Even an example of a Sarastoa. The all have to be bolted down to concrete

 

[Coug]

Actually that is part of NEC codes. On the service disconnect there is supposed to be sign saying it has an ATS/genset and directions to generator and disconnect at the generator with sign noting disconnect inside here. All gens are supposed to have emergency shutoff. There are several internet write ups on wire sizing, label, offsets etc. Even an example of a Sarastoa. The all have to be bolted down to concrete

It was my understanding that what you said only applies if the generator is permanently wired to the transfer switch. If the MEP is not a permanent install and wired through a plug that can be detached then that wouldn't apply.

Looking at the 2011 NEC the only thing similar to this I could find is
NEC 445.1 Disconnecting Means.
Generators must have one or more disconnecting means that disconnects all power, except where:
1) The driving means for the generator can be readily shut down,
and
2) The generator isn’t arranged to operate in parallel with another generator or other source of voltage

NEC 702.7 A sign that indicates the type and location of on-site optional standby power sources must be placed at the service-entrance equipment.

I found nothing concerning any type of emergency shutdown required, only that it must be able to be disconnected.

I know there is a 2014 version, and possibly newer than that, but it tends to take utilities a few years to adopt a new set of standards from my experience.


I will say that very few of the automatic backup generators I've worked on (I repair Generac standbys for a living) have any type of obvious markings for where the disconnect would be, as the majority of them are installed either as a replacement breaker panel with the main disconnect at the top, or are installed as a sub-panel. The ones that I do see that are service entry rated still require removing several bolts in order to access the panel and the disconnect.


When my own personal equipment got inspected, I had an electrician friend install a complete new electrical panel, wired it for a 30 amp inlet and interlock kit. Utility company came out in the morning, pulled the meter to disconnect power, and came back in the afternoon to reconnect. They came inside and took a quick glance at the panel/wiring, and liked what they saw. The actual inspector didn't come out to check on it until 3 days later and also had no issues with the panel wiring or interlock setup. I don't recall if he even glanced at the new power inlet box on the outside wall, and my generator wasn't anywhere in sight.


I have yet to see any of these generators in the consumer side of things that have any type of emergency shutoff. The commercial level units do, but the emergency shutdown is still inside the unit at the control panel, most of the time they require some type of key in order to access.

 

[LEOK]

www.mikeholt.com

/download.php?file=PDF/11_​

Generators_and_Standby_Power_Systems

.pdf

702 optional standby systems
​

 

[Coug]

The link didn't come up right, but looks like you're looking at the 2011 NEC and section 702.
I checked, and Florida goes by the 2014 version of the NEC, and my jurisdiction is the 2017 version.

In neither version did I find anywhere talking about an emergency shutdown.

702.7 Signs
(A) Standby Power Sources. A sign that indicates the type and location of on-site optional standby power sources must be placed at theservice-entrance equipment.
(no (B) section)
(C) If it's a plug type connection it must be labeled as either bonded or floating neutral, and only that type of system is to be connected.

Also mentioned in section 702.12 is portable generators 15kw or less don't require an additional means of disconnecting the generator if you're using a plug type inlet.


If you are seeing somewhere that it says an emergency shutdown is required could you link it or copy that specific section/subsection here? I'd really like to know if I'm missing something.




https://www.google.com/url?client=i...FjABegQIDxAC&usg=AOvVaw2vv-L7g3PxmsvIz8bqPyFW

 

[Coug]

Actually that is part of NEC codes. On the service disconnect there is supposed to be sign saying it has an ATS/genset and directions to generator and disconnect at the generator with sign noting disconnect inside here. All gens are supposed to have emergency shutoff. There are several internet write ups on wire sizing, label, offsets etc. Even an example of a Sarastoa. The all have to be bolted down to concrete

Also, to refute the "they all have to be bolted down to concrete" part, that is dependant on local codes, there is nothing in the national standards that optional standby generators are required to be bolted to a concrete slab.
Going from the Generac install manual:
The generator is typically placed on pea gravel, crushed stone or a concrete pad. Check local codes to see whattype is required. If a concrete pad is required, all federal, state and local codes should be followed.

Page 14 of the following manual (this is a recent model install manual)
https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/2014_8-22_Install(36).pdf

Not saying that's what is required or not at the OP's location though.

 

[LEOK]

shutdown

https://blog.norwall.com/informatio...red-for-greater-than-15kw-standby-generators/

All Florida genset and air conditioners are required to be secured Florida hurricane standards

http://genpads.com/lit/WIND%20CALCULATIONS%20GENERAC%20GENERATORS%202014.pdf
​

 

[m32825]

A pad is intended to prevent overturn and movement. For a given wind speed, if an object weighs enough relative to its surface area (a car for instance) it's not going anywhere. Is anyone here smart enough to do the ASCE 7-10 calculations for our favorite generators?

 

[LEOK]

Virtually all of the Florida counties are requiring AC & Genset to be pad mounted, as long as the pad is bigger than the unit and about 3 inches thick they OK them. I used some 9' long concrete rail road ties made with pretensioned with 8 bars at 675# each but only cost $30 each. The flat spot where rails sit matched my 36KW genset. Also the genset is about 100ft from service we used they labels on the disconnect that directs you to the genset, and one the genset that says disconnect under this cover, and the Deep Sea 7320 MKII controller provides the emergency stop button.

For load management we are going to run each large device like range, drier, AC if we exceed 75% of rated 100% load rating we will install Generac load sheading device on the range and drier. They monitor the frequency and dropout at set loss.

 

[Coug]

So the emergency shutdown requirement is in the 2017 NEC, which Florida has not adopted yet (looks like it is in the update process, by 12/31/2020) , but sounds like a very good idea.
The external emergency shutdown is also only required for generators over 15KW.

As for the bolted to concrete due to wind load, that is a Florida requirement,, not actually part of the NEC, so while it would apply to the OP for a permanent installation, it's not a requirement for the rest of the country (unless your local jurisdiction does require it). Just trying to clarify for everyone as the earlier comment made it sound like it was part of the NEC requirements.


Thank you for the links, I learned something new to look for and to discuss with my local electricians who do installs in the area.

 

[LEOK]

Florida is kind of County by County nothing really uniform, since I was designing a my genset, motor, alternator, cabinet, controller it didn't really add any costs to meet the latest standards. I was surprised how little the cost increase to go from 15kw to a 35kw unit.