FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

[BigBison]

I would most likely get banded if I REALLY posted what I thought of this POS, so POS will have to do.

I enjoy a good rant myself, but... HANG IN THERE! I have this marginally-operational SEE I could go on and on about how it should be in better condition... but! Despite working on it as much every day as I'm working it, if you own a SEE you've got yerself a **** fine piece of kit, so to speak! Bear with it, work through the bugs, and it oughtta last a lifetime of relatively trouble-free service. At least that's what I tell myself every time I crawl under it on a snowy driveway in January...

Love your SEE, dude, don't hate it! Otherwise, once you get it running, Karma may come around and bite you in the butt for your lack of faith.

Plus, we're here to help! This thread's a monstrosity, but going back through it has made me a better owner/operator. When it does work, my SEE draws a crowd of spectators, but it's not like tractors & backhoes aren't commonplace around here. When the SEE does work, it has some capability other backhoes lack, which hasn't escaped the notice of my tractor & backhoe-owning neighbors.

Yeah, I hear ya, I really wished either or both my FLUs were put to rights by their previous owners before dumping all that work on me, when I thought I was buying fully-functional gear. What I don't own, are unrepairable lemons best relegated to being parts tractors. Hang in there, once you get your FLU sorted, you'll wish you'd never hated it, eh?

 

[BigBison]

Not much progress on anything since I screwed my back up, again, dismounting SEE tires and loading up the wheels.

This is why I'd hoped to farm out fixing up my FLUs to a nearby expert. Dump all that work on me, it isn't lack of time or ability or knowledge or gumption, it's just a lack of physical capability... especially if I have to swap out wheels and such! One of these days hopefully soon, both my FLUs will be in excellent enough condition to not worry about anything more than preventative maintenance (greasing zerks and whatnot) for years on end. I hope I'm ultimately right about that!

 

[BigBison]

Volt meters only in my FLUs, too. Sounds like the originally planned to use that shunt - which I have yet to remove.

They *did* use the shunt, just on the diagnostic system instead of a dashboard gauge. Growing up, my Uncle drove his family around the country in the "family truckster" faux-wood-paneled Plymouth station-wagon with the optional gauge package, came with a center console with 9-10 extra gauges including amps, vacuum, tranny temp, and whatnot.

Pull all the diagnostic wiring from your FLU if you must, but if you value an ammeter, leave the shunt intact! If you don't, I'll buy yours from you at $50 per as that would be a bargain. FLU Farm, please don't go all agro ripping out these systems. It's within my abilities to figure out a solution -- maybe I'll charge you a few bucks for a plug-in diagnostic adapter in a year or two, I'll just hope you're more interested in seeing what all those senders have to say, than leaving them in your FLUs to plug holes instead of "sending" anything anywhere.

I'd love if my FLUs had half the gauges my Uncle's old woodie-station-wagon Family Truckster had! Same goes for the GMC. IMO, the more info I can get analog without bringing computer chips into the deal, the better!!!

 

[BigBison]

I don't want to drive around in a Unimog with any sort of chips running it. Which is why I love it, right down to the German copper/ceramic fuses under the hood! The capped interface down by the shift levers, etc. may not plug into anything anyone owns (or even has access to) anymore, but it's a simple matter of wiring the thing up for OBD1 (I call my FLUs "OBD0"). Easier than OBD2, which is also possible... But any shop, or for $5 on FleaBay, has a handheld with the ability to read OBD1/2 data. Plus, there's nothing susceptible to EMP damage... oooh... excpet, come to think of it, that video I referred to earlier of a burned-out alternator relay...

Maybe that leaves air pressure out of the diagnostics, I'm still figuring it all out. I'd love if my FLUs, rather than having computers on-board, can have bog-standard diagnostic handhelds any shop has at hand, plugged into some sort of adapter, telling me/them everything I/we need to know *when needed* as opposed to constantly broadcasting that data back to the manufacturer over satellite and whatnot. In terms of onboard diagnostics, our FLUs were ahead of the curve back in their day. Daddy's BMW 528e had a diagnostic panel between the center rear-view mirror and the sunroof, press the button, and a bunch of LEDs would light up; if a brake light was out, the "brake lights" LED would stay dark. There was also an oil-change green-yellow-red LED bar between the speedo and the tach.

BITD, those weren't hackable systems susceptible to EMP damage & war-driving, like they all are today! No, I don't want any such computer on-board, but I'd love to be able to plug any ol' bog-standard Fluke OBD1/2 handheld into my FLUs somehow. Once I do work it out, I hope I don't have to say I told ya so to anyone who went and ripped out their shunt, etc.

But seriously, if you do rip out your shunts, I'll buy 'em for $50 per. Bargain!

So many senders on my FLUs with no corresponding dash gauge. But it's all been standardized (OBD1/2) since our FLUs were built. So while I don't care about sourcing the proper diagnostic tool for a FLU, I'm not about to rip all that wiring out to "simplify" things. Time will tell, but do be patient with me! I'm not kidding around when I say I'll be fabbing an adapter to plug any OBD1/2 Fluke/whatevs into my FLUs sometime soon. Doing this hardly makes my FLUs "hackable" but at the same time, why not listen to everything my truck's trying to tell me, when it's in the shop with some problem or other?

 

[The FLU farm]

German fuses may be silly, but they are easy. The color-coding on the ceramic is similar to the color-coding on American fuses, although I'll admit a chart comes in handy.

You just cost me $21, Bison, as you inspired me to order 96 of those things, just so that I'll never need them.

[/QUOTE]This is why I'd hoped to farm out fixing up my FLUs to a nearby expert. Dump all that work on me, it isn't lack of time or ability or knowledge or gumption, it's just a lack of physical capability... especially if I have to swap out wheels and such! One of these days hopefully soon, both my FLUs will be in excellent enough condition to not worry about anything more than preventative maintenance (greasing zerks and whatnot) for years on end. I hope I'm ultimately right about that! [/QUOTE]


I hate not being able to do things myself, even if it takes longer and/or costs more. When I don't, I generally end up fixing the result anyway. And either way, I don't learn from not doing it myself.


[/QUOTE]Pull all the diagnostic wiring from your FLU if you must, but if you value an ammeter, leave the shunt intact! If you don't, I'll buy yours from you at $50 per as that would be a bargain. FLU Farm, please don't go all agro ripping out these systems. It's within my abilities to figure out a solution -- maybe I'll charge you a few bucks for a plug-in diagnostic adapter in a year or two, I'll just hope you're more interested in seeing what all those senders have to say, than leaving them in your FLUs to plug holes instead of "sending" anything anywhere.[/QUOTE]

I'll hopefully have a substantial pile of wiring and gizmos left over from the SEE in the spring. You're welcome to the leftovers.
And obviously I still have a lot to learn about how to quote like you do.

 

[BigBison]

Close! Give it an edit, I think you'll have the multi-quote down!

But hey, if you keep helping me with your lifetime of experience with truck hydraulic/air systems, I certainly won't mind sharing of my 20 yrs experience quoting posts on Internet forums!

You need a pair of opening/closing quotes. [] with /quote ends the block of text you're quoting. The beginning, for the post you were after, would be [] with QUOTE=BigBison;1966497 in-between, but you can ctrl-c ctrl-v (copy/paste) that. Hope that helps!

 

[The FLU farm]

Close! Give it an edit, I think you'll have the multi-quote down!

But hey, if you keep helping me with your lifetime of experience with truck hydraulic/air systems, I certainly won't mind sharing of my 20 yrs experience quoting posts on Internet forums!

You need a pair of opening/closing quotes. [] with /quote ends the block of text you're quoting. The beginning, for the post you were after, would be [] with QUOTE=BigBison;1966497 in-between, but you can ctrl-c ctrl-v (copy/paste) that. Hope that helps!

Hey, baby steps, alright. At least it didn't all get completely boogered.
No lifetime experiences, by the way. Didn't get into air systems until buying the Pete in '98, and hydraulics only came into play when deciding to find a way to operate the angling of a snow blade on my tractor (without buying a 3-rd function kit, since I prefer levers over buttons) some three years ago. Lots learned, LOTS more to learn.
But you have me beat with over 10 to one on forum experience.

 

[The FLU farm]

image 1 of 3

By the way, Bison, this 12" bucket is available not far from me.
Might be perfect for trenching in rocky ground. PM me if you're interested in it.

​

I'm picking up a regular 12-incher (closer to you) on Wednesday.

 

[BigBison]

About a year ago, some kids in Aurora carjacked a guy and high-tailed it for the Flat Tops. They didn't get very far out of Yampa, this time of year that road isn't exactly plowed...! They wrecked the stolen car, broke into a cabin to stay the night, and set to hiking out the next morning.

Whereupon they encountered a local village-elder rancher, who asked if that was their car on down the road. The kids, to their credit, didn't lie when they said "no." At which point the rancher asked 'em, how'd you get up here from town? They said they hiked, then asked for a ride back to town.

The rancher replied, hey if you hiked up here, surely you strapping young lads can hike back to town, I'm busy. Callin' the cops...

Anyway, he drove by while I was clearing the end of the driveway, earlier. His comment about my Unimog?

"That's quite the buggy ya got there!"

 

[BigBison]

My other adventure just driving the SEE around with air issues, is the hand-splitter. Motoring down the road at 15mph, is about 1200RPM in 2-under, high range. You'll notice the air pressure's dropped too far before the warning light turns on, when the tranny goes to 2-direct, and your RPMs drop to stall, if you don't put 'er to rights in time, while slowing down to 10mph, about my top speed in 2-direct. Losing 4WD's nowhere near as noticeable!

I may be interested in a narrower bucket, but not quite yet as I'm still trying to buy a HME.

 

[73m819]

That is the problem here, mister RAT ate the wiring right down to the connectors, what numbers, when I started this project, I even had loose male/female connectors with NO wires on EITHER side, wires eaten though in two or three places, I have about 2/3 of things working, ENGINE STARTS WITH THE PUSH BUTTON, when this POS arrived a SCREWDRIVER was your friend, that was as far as the magic spark flowed EXCEPT where it made smoke.

I just do not understand WHY the wiring had to be a total mess like it is, it could have made so simple and easy to work on and drawing power from the 3 lever for things that have NO connection to the use of the 3 lever EXCEPT as a power source is stupid (a lot of this is going to be rerouted to the key switch where it should have been in the first place), on top of this the wire numbers seem to change in the same circuit on a wim. This is the WORSE wiring that I have ever delt with, I started dealing with this crap when cloth covered wires was being used, those that know me KNOW that I am OLD

 

[BigBison]

I just do not understand WHY the wiring had to be a total mess like it is...

We're gonna hafta chalk this up as a fact of life of FLU ownership. Before we criticize the wiring, it would help to know how the wiring *is* vs. how the wiring *should be*. My HMMH seems to have mostly-stock wiring, my SEE has a bunch of undocumented changes to the wiring based on how someone thought it *should be* where I'd rather have the wiring on that vehicle as *is* so that *I* can make the decisions on changing it.

I'm going to be much happier refurbishing the wiring on my HMMH, than I will be on my SEE. Yeah, the master cutoff on the HMMH has been wired around, but the SEE's just a mess by way of comparison. If you're planning to sell your FLU on, then please, if you don't set the wiring to rights, could you please document what you've done to make it all different? If someone had bothered to document all the wiring mods on my SEE, I'd be a lot less like Hellen Keller with the furniture rearranged, working on that truck, right?

So I'd rather figure out some solution to all that otherwise-removable wiring for a defunct diagnostic system, than just rip it all out. I was more than happy to rip out all the wiring on my bespoke crane-service body, but a FLU? We can do something with that! I'd rather have a FLU with wiring intact, than one I can't put an OBD1/2 Fluke on because someone's gone all commando on the wiring without leaving any notes behind or anything. Don't make me guess!

I'm just sayin' I'd rather deal with the FLU wiring as seen in the manuals/diagrams than something ad-hoc meant to "fix" it -- diagnostic computers can always be adapted to read all those senders even without CAN! Instead of ripping out all that diagnostic wiring, I'd rather figure out some sort of dongle/black-box to make it work as-is, instead of every FLU out there having its own completely-different wiring. Let's work with what we have, OK?

 

[peakbagger]

In case anyone else is reading this thread and are not familiar with this system its operation is covered in the manuals but to the vast majority of SEE owners they should probably ignore it. The wiring is in place but the diagnostic scanner is separate service tool not supplied with the SEE. I have seen at least one for sale since I bought mine in 2015. I believe it can be configured for several different military vehicles probably by replaceing a ROM so they may not have been released at the same time as the SEE.

The diagnostic system wiring is not shown on the poster size electrical diagram, it appears to have been upfitted after it left the factory like other systems. The actual wiring is not in the factory wire harness and is generally taped on the outside of the main runs. An OBD scanner would be useless as OBD reads digital protocols, the readings available from the diagnostic port are analog DC and anyone with a multimeter can duplicate the output with the exception of comparing a real measured value against recommended values stored in the diagnostic scanner. The diagnostic wiring or components are not covered in the electrical troubleshooting section of the manual. The diagnostic harness or at least some of the components do appear in the parts manuals. The main value is that all of the connection points are in one location in the cab so it would speed up diagnostics. Luckily on the high priority sensors like oil pressure and engine temperature Mercedes installed dual sensors, one output for the regular electrical harness and one for the diagnostic system.

One apparent issue that has popped up with some folks SEEs is loose/corroded connections at the shunt resistor on the main battery cable. This shunt is used for amps reading by the diagnostic connector only. These connections is one of the many reasons why an engine may not start and most folks who don't know its there would probably miss it and wonder why the truck is acting like it has dirty battery connections. I haven't had the issue and haven't even looked for it but seem to remember at least one person who removed it to take a trouble point out of the system. The other issue is the fuel pressure differential sensor plumbed in between the inlet and outlet of the fuel filter. As delivered it could rub on the hood and can be just another thing to catch on when removing the hood. It can be rotated out of the way but at least two folks have removed it and plugged the connections. The only thing that uses this sensor is the diagnostics it is not used by the standard Mercedes electrical system. I would speculate that the brake pad wear indicator wiring is potentially a trouble spot as on mine they hang loose from the harness and would be prone to catching on undergrowth.

I realize that different folks have different goals with their SEEs but IMHO I sure wouldn't go out of my way to spend big bucks on a official diagnostic scanner (if one ever hits the market) unless someone is going for "concours" restoration of their rig to an "as delivered to the US Army" state and needs it for authenticity. For those who just want to use the SEE as designed, I wouldn't stress about it. I expect it would be an interesting intellectual exercise to figure the pin out of the port and if someone had the skills I expect they could recreate the functionality of the scanner with a laptop and a digital multimeter interface. Either that or skip the laptop and go right to an app on a smart phone as I believe there are DMMs available that connect via the microUSB ports.

As an aside it would be interesting to see how a concours judge would approach a SEE. Given that the paint appears to have been applied with a roller brush with no surface prep and panel fits are plus or minus 1/4 to a 1/2" I expect the biggest issue the judge would have is determining if the rig was over restored as I don't think a paint shop would be able to recreate the surface texture and assembly quality.

 

[The FLU farm]

Luckily on the high priority sensors like oil pressure and engine temperature Mercedes installed dual sensors, one output for the regular electrical harness and one for the diagnostic system.

Built in spares? Interesting. Alright, i dislike the diagnostic system's wiring a bit less now.
Until I end up chasing a sending unit issue, and eventually realize that I have been following the wrong wire.

And unlike General Hood, who paints, washes, waxes and polishes his SEE's (when he's not kicking their doors in frustration) I'm not concerned with concourse quality.
If a modification makes a FLU operate better, easier to work on, or increases efficiency, I'm all for it. To me they are useful tools, and I prefer simplicity.

Which reminds me; Bison, why don't you stick a piece of bubblegum (or something) in that leaky drain valve to stop/slow the leak down for now? I rarely use the splitter so that part wouldn't bother me, but not having reliable 4WD would.

 

[Another Ahab]

As an aside it would be interesting to see how a concours judge would approach a SEE. Given that the paint appears to have been applied with a roller brush with no surface prep and panel fits are plus or minus 1/4 to a 1/2" I expect the biggest issue the judge would have is determining if the rig was over restored as I don't think a paint shop would be able to recreate the surface texture and assembly quality.

It sounds totally contrary that the SEE is a Mercedces product but seems to have all these crazy problems with the wiring, the fit, the finish and all the other issues noted on the thread here.

What's that all about; was the SEE contract maybe subcontracted to others by Mercedes and maybe assembled by bricklayers in Afghanistan or something?!

 

[peakbagger]

For a farm tractor a SEE is built and finished pretty well, not so much for a modern truck but these are all close to 30 year old pieces of equipment. They were built in the Unimog factory. The SEE is a 419 series but really its just the final evolution of the 406 series. The more modern looking heavier chassis 1000 to 1300 series was around in 1976 while the 419 SEEs were built into the late eighties. The SEE is based on the old CASE units and I expect that by the time the US government decided to buy the SEE, Mercedes probably was ready to close the 406 factory until the US signed a contract for 2500 SEEs. I expect the day that the last SEE rolled off the line, that was it for 406 series. The infamous 300K Arnold Mog is a 1977 which looks far more modern than a 10 year newer SEE. The good thing about being the last of the series is they had plenty of time to correct bugs in the 406 series. Apparently the SEE engine cover is rubber insulated while early 406's weren't and early 406's had plastic cooling fans which tended to shatter when they hit the water while fording, SEEs have far beefier aluminum fan. The heated windshield may also be an upgrade. I also think there are some internal engine upgrades.

I don't blame Mercedes for Texas rats taking a liking to the harness, I think the assumption was these pieces of equipment were going to be used not stored in depots for years at a time. Texas rats do not appear to be discriminatory they seem to eat any old wiring harnesses regardless of nationality. I am curious about the paints origin, my SEE has a plaque that the some sort of coating system was applied after the fact. I think it was designed to reduce the heat signature and was applied quite thick with flat texture as this will tend to reduce reflectance and was done probably in a hurry. In the manual are instructions on installing reflective panels on all sides of the vehicle so that SEE is more visible, I expect in war, those panels would get taken off. It would be interesting if a 406 owner could comment on the paint quality as the paint quality may be SEE specific. I have seen other military paint jobs that appear to have similar texture so there may actually be desired result?.

I do sit the darn fuse box configuration squarely in Mercedes lap, it s*cked on the early 406's and still s*cks on the SEE. That style fuse was the default at the time, I see all sorts of Euro cars of that vintage with them so it may have been some sort of standard? The plastic fuel line issue was a Mercedes wide issue, they tried a new material that should have been an improvement over steel lines and unfortunately the better idea ended up being an issue later on.

The other thing that causes many of the SEE issues is just plain old age. Many have sat unused for decades and more than few of them have been worked on by folks who were indifferent at best at doing it right. I have found a few samples of issues that didn't come from the factory like wires twisted together and wrapped with electrical tape and forcing 1/4" copper tubing with lots of Teflon tape in place of the correct metric tubing. Some of the issues are due to US subcontractors, like any military spending, the goal is to buy stuff from various congressional districts to reward politicians. I expect the CASE backhoe was US built. The hydraulic cooler is another US built item with a design flaw and much of the rear equipment like the hydraulic tanks, hydraulic hand tool reel, Rear accessories electrical harness and switchgear all were US sourced along with FOPS.

I do have suspicion that many of the air system issues lies directly in Mercedes lap, the cross body air line from the air pressure regulator to the air tank manifold is a poor design, it is a low point and I expect unless the unit is run for quite awhile it get filleds with moisture and then rusts from the inside out. Most likely if the SEE was started on occasion for maintenance they didn't use much air and didn't run that long so like the stereotypical old ladies car exhaust that never quite warms up, that rot in the air line was encouraged. When I replaced that line I started working my way down through the air system and in every component I hit rust flake accumulation that I am pretty sure came out of the rusted air line. The air tank drains are not very well located and I expect that not all drivers purged them every time they ran the truck. I know I haven't gone all the way through the system due to poor access and expect that at some point I will regret it. I expect other folks are just trying to run SEEs like they were new off the lot and end up having myriads of storage issues. About the only company I am aware of that seems to turnover a lot of SEEs is C&C equipment and would be curious what service they do and check to collect the premium they typically sell theirs for (23 K versus the current market of real sales which is more like 16K) . I expect he probably has a tech that was trained by the military to work on them and after awhile I expect they have found what systems bite them in the butt on SEEs that have sat for long periods.

One thing folks in the US don't realize is that Mercedes is master in upmarket salesmanship in the US. We only see their higher end models. Mercedes apparently are quite popular as fleet vehicles in Europe and sell some very stripped versions of what are typically fully optioned out models in the US. Cab fleets and police departments don't buy they for the image I expect they get great fleet pricing. Considering the SEE is sold as a road going tractor I don't think fit and finish was an important factor.

 

[jstark45xd]

Wow, "does the engine come up to temp" is a good question! After a while, the gauge on the dash comes up a ways from zero. But I don't have enough experience on either of my FLUs to have a baseline -- even if I'd checked my gauges, and they were accurate, I still wouldn't know if my FLUs were running hot or cold, without looking it up in the manual. After first spending an hour figuring out which manual to look that up IN...

Especially this time of year! It took everything I threw at the HMMH the other month, to get its fans to bother spinning up at 65*F. But there's a whole lotta heat-sinking going on, so as far as I know, those fans shouldn't have turned on? At least I know they work!

Normal op temp should be between 180-220F. My thermostat opens at 220F. As for air pressure, my buzzer goes off at 90psi.

 

[Another Ahab]

One thing folks in the US don't realize is that Mercedes is master in upmarket salesmanship in the US. We only see their higher end models. Mercedes apparently are quite popular as fleet vehicles in Europe and sell some very stripped versions of what are typically fully optioned out models in the US. Cab fleets and police departments don't buy they for the image I expect they get great fleet pricing. Considering the SEE is sold as a road going tractor I don't think fit and finish was an important factor.

That explains a lot. I always wondered why you'd typically see like everybody and their uncle driving their Benz in various of the Third World destinations.

 

[The FLU farm]

Normal op temp should be between 180-220F. My thermostat opens at 220F.

One more thing to look into, at some point. My temp gauges show about 160 degrees no matter what. Well, once the engines are up to temperature.
How accurate those readings are I haven't checked.
They'll get long-life coolant in the spring, and that'll be the opportune moment to look into any problems with the cooling system.

 

[General Hood]

when this POS arrived a SCREWDRIVER was your friend, that was as far as the magic spark flowed EXCEPT where it made smoke.

The Texarkana GP loadout guy carries a huge flathead screwdriver in his back pocket, he doesn't even bother with trying the starter button