Fuel filters or lack thereof and stalling.

[DB556]

Well it friday I'll take the deuce for a spin, and stop by buddies and do some work on it.
Put in some new fuel filters, top up the fluids, etc. in the nice shady barn, His nephew is interested in the truck so I let him help etc.
So we putz around get it all back together swing by a flee market, get 100gallons of nice cheap ohio diesel $2.75 vs PA $3.50 ($275 vs $350 a bit difference a 10 mile drive makes)
Well on the way back from the days festivities (~100miles) I start stalling out at redlights, stop signs, etc. More often than usual.

Now this happens if I dont keep the hand throttle around 3 clicks, and even then it does it on occasion dropping from high speed to a stop. But a stall every dozen stops or so ok, but this is every stop.

I limp it back to the barn, and low and behold the housing are back in place but guess what isn't in them! The filters! So I asked him what the **** was going on, "they were the wrong size so I didn't put them in...." low and behold I did grab the wrong filters from my shop. I pulled the first filter atleast it was there.

But now I'm hopping I didn't score up and kill my HH with too large of particles going through it, was a 100miles enough to kill it our do you guys thing its a deposit on the shut off valve etc?


I grabbed my other truck and got a bunch of parts from rural king, bunch of hydraulic hose, fitting and a filter base for a Cat 1r-0750
No more Napa filters too **** expensive the Cat filter has a finer micron size and is cheaper.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I've got gov issue secondary filters with the correct gaskets for $5 each plus shipping. PM me if you want some.

 

[Floridianson]

Not really a shut off valve in the IP. There is the fuel control assembly and the plunger sleeve that takes care of everything as far as fuel control. Ok as for particles from unfiltered fuel causing the engine cutting off when you come to a stop no I do not believe so. You had the problem before but the truck ran good and seems like it just got worse. Now I just helped a friend replace his Head on the IP and it runs and drives fine but he to is having the same problem of shutting down on a quick stop or snapping the throttle closed to fast. I want him to do a pressure check of the system to start with because it is quick and easy. Problem is I we don't believe that is the problem and we really think he needs to check both governor springs. It to is not that bad of a job and can be done with the IP still on the motor just not as easy as checking pressures.
As far as a very small piece of trash seems like the injector tip would take the hit.

 

[frank8003]

So there was not the stalling problem before you filled up the fuel tanks.
No note of which filters were not replaced leaving empty cans.
If the filter canisters were cleaned out then no bad stuff would get to the booster pump and HH.
We are trying to protect the lapped finish within the HH head, circled.


View attachment fuel system best picture (1).pdf

The "new" diesel that one buys is for newer engines and the cetan value may or may not be good for a multifuel but the lubricity of the fuel is certainly too low. Consider adding new motor oil to your fuel up.
Something is lots better than nothing.

Also you may have got a batch of very high cetane rated fuel which may or may not be good in a multifuel? Cetane content, expressed between 40 and 55, is one measure of a fuel's ignition quality.
Sure sounds like water in the fuel, doesn't it.

View attachment Diesel fuel additive test interesting stuff.pdf

 

[Floridianson]

Yea I ment to ask if the primary was left out or just the secondary and final. Yep easy to check for water.

 

[DB556]

Yea I ment to ask if the primary was left out or just the secondary and final. Yep easy to check for water.

The primary was in place, and when I pulled it I didn't see any water in the housing. It was the secondary and final that didn't get installed.
The secondary and final housing weren't terribly clean when I pulled them.

Yes the stalling after quick decel/stops was there but nowhere near as bad the rpm would bounce around, so maybe governor springs?
But now its every stop. Which I dont think governor springs would change after refueling very quickly.

It could be bad/high cetane fuel, I'll get some water check on a stick and swirl it around the bottom of the tank.

But now even from last night another problem, the Alternator gauge on the dash stopped working. Time to break out the voltmeter.

 

[Floridianson]

Believe the cetane level was much higher the years the trucks were made. That is why I use a good product for lubricity and cetane booster. Yea rust from the secondary and final canisters can cause problems. I like the troubleshooting manual to run down engine performance problems. It seems to be better than skipping around to find the problem.
Don't know that the governor springs are Allens problems as we are putting a plan of direction on his motor.
As far as RPM dropping off that also is the droop screw job to catch. Is you FDC bypassed?https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?116454-LDS465-1-Multifuel-Engine-Troubleshooting-Manual

 

[tennmogger]

Could there simply be air getting into the system? Unfiltered fuel gumming up the works would manifest as fuel starvation at higher speeds and high loads, wouldn't it? Air getting in would cause starvation at low speeds, at idle as you indicated.

 

[frank8003]

Could goto HD and get some toluene, an ounce for 10 gallons, at 120 octane and some Naptha and a gallon of new good old 30 W motor oil, dump it in the tank and run truck all over at 1800rpm, see if it begins to clear up. After the new filters. Worth a try, cheap, can't hurt. It like Seafoam.
Put some Seafoam or HEET in there from the store before taking things apart that were OK before refueling.

 

[DB556]

FDC was bypasses by toole depot in 1993 if the tag I found on the tie wire on the FDC was correct.

Took me a while but I found a 1/2 OD inverted flare to NPT adapter so I've started replacing the lines with hydraulic hoses, more than a few copper lines were crushed.

 

[rustystud]

I very seriously doubt the governor springs have anything to do with your issue here. It sounds like your fuel control valve is sticking due to gummy deposits from lack of fuel filtration. I've seen this happen before. The valve starts to get a little sticky and the governor springs cannot overcome the resistance. Remember, there is "no" physical connection between the fuel rod from your "go" pedal in the cab. It is all controlled by the governor springs pushing against the weights and the force of your pedal. That fuel control rod (Frank has a good picture for you in post #4) should move with "no" resistance. So take the cover off and spray it with a good quality lubricant ( I love Tri-Flow myself) and make sure it moves with no binding or resistance. Then install some good filters ! Take Gimpyrobb up on his offer. He has good NOS filters.

 

[Floridianson]

Yep sticky "fuel control assembly" can cause cause more problems than we ever want. Wide open throttel being the worst.
I know the other member Allen his fuel control assembly that is installed in the head and controlling the plunger sleeve is moving free. We ran through it twice on install. That was to show him how for some reason over tightening the two screws on the control assembly seems to bind up the fuel control. O well hope you get it figure and do as much reading as possible as for us to try and guess the problem is so much harder then having the truck in front of a person to do the testing.
I know I asked before about the bypassed FDC but I found one of my Deuces had the sticker on the oil canisters saying the IP was bypassed but it was not. So your is right?
Here is a picture of the fuel control unit assembly under the shut down cover.

 

[DB556]

Well I went down to the yard today and finished the fuel filter and hoses. 12ft of hydraulic line and a few handfuls of fittings later.
I now a have a baldwin BF1258 (10micron) primary and a CAT 1R-0750 (2 micron) secondary spin on filters. Much easier to get. If I'm out on the road.
Now I'm still waiting for my pressure gauges for pre and post filter to check if there clogged, but that's what more pipe fitting and pipe dope is for.


Only thing I wonder about is on the stock filter housing has its either a check valve or pressure valve on the return, if its a check valve I have those in stock I can put one in.
But if its a pressure relief what PSI does it pop at?

Now I took out the fuel control rod and the little pin was more caked in crude than when I got the truck which is saying something. I got is freed up but still now smooth.
I buttoned it back up it ran but poorly, so I cleaned it again, but thought let me look at the fuel delivery valve, and that screw is stuck let me tell you!
Cleaned some more and cranked but no start so I start trouble shooting, fuel, etc, so I pull the plug and not rod is barely moving, freaking button again!

So I pulled the HH. Yep it was the button, found sitting in there, but the spider was fine not cracked? I got a few extra spiders from Ambac when I got that last one.
I'll switch it out now that I'm going to be cleaning up the HH.

Time to free up the fuel delivery valve its probably all caked up if the other parts are any example.

 

[rustystud]

Well I went down to the yard today and finished the fuel filter and hoses. 12ft of hydraulic line and a few handfuls of fittings later.
I now a have a baldwin BF1258 (10micron) primary and a CAT 1R-0750 (2 micron) secondary spin on filters. Much easier to get. If I'm out on the road.
Now I'm still waiting for my pressure gauges for pre and post filter to check if there clogged, but that's what more pipe fitting and pipe dope is for.


Only thing I wonder about is on the stock filter housing has its either a check valve or pressure valve on the return, if its a check valve I have those in stock I can put one in.
But if its a pressure relief what PSI does it pop at?

Now I took out the fuel control rod and the little pin was more caked in crude than when I got the truck which is saying something. I got is freed up but still now smooth.
I buttoned it back up it ran but poorly, so I cleaned it again, but thought let me look at the fuel delivery valve, and that screw is stuck let me tell you!
Cleaned some more and cranked but no start so I start trouble shooting, fuel, etc, so I pull the plug and not rod is barely moving, freaking button again!

So I pulled the HH. Yep it was the button, found sitting in there, but the spider was fine not cracked? I got a few extra spiders from Ambac when I got that last one.
I'll switch it out now that I'm going to be cleaning up the HH.

Time to free up the fuel delivery valve its probably all caked up if the other parts are any example.

Crappy fuel has been proven to be the major cause of the "button" coming loose. When you get gummy crappy fuel in the injection pump it causes the "button" to stick to the injection pump piston, and the "plunger" to stick in it's bore. Usually at the top of it's stroke. If the button is not stuck on the piston, it gets knocked off from the piston hitting it when the plunger is stuck. Either way the button gets pulled off.
Now when you clean out that fuel delivery valve, be sure to really clean the sealing surface of the plug. Both on the HH and the plug.

 

[Floridianson]

But if its a pressure relief what PSI does it pop at?.

If you are talking about the pressure relief on the secondary filter would seem it would be 70 psi. I thought it was in the TM's but I can not find it now. The TM just tells us if with a pressure check if we have less than 60 psi which is the minimum high idle or 30 psi idle then we look for the problem. Of course a fuel line restriction is one problem but lets go with we know that is ok. So it was to check the Head over flow valve first. Then one would think if it was ok to check the pressure relief on the secondary fuel filter. Now about that pressure relief the LDS trouble shooting manual has the system being able to go as high as 80 psi. Now that manual also did not show a pressure relief in the system. Now the LDT injection manual has the booster pump pressure relief starting to open at 60 and fully open at 70 psi. Then it just returns the fuel to it's fuel inlet to push through again. If you can find the opening pressure of the secondary fuel filter relief it would be great. The main thing is as long as we have the minimum 60 psi checked between the secondary and final fuel filters bleed screw then thing are close to spec. If we have 70 psi would be even a little better but the TM just calls for a 60 minimum. Hope that makes sense. Now one would think if you secondary and final fuel filter got to tight that would increase your pressures. Just have to hope they let more than 60 /70 psi through before the secondary pressure relief valve opened. Don't think you should have any problem. I just went with a 10 micron in the secondary and 6 micron in final in the canisters and can make my 60 psi minimum. For the person that likes gages one would think having a gage on the out side fuel flow of the final fuel filter or on the line to the head to check to make sure you had the minimum 60 psi at the head.

 

[frank8003]

I put a 3 micron on the whole deal, at the outlet of the in-tank pump.
There will be zero problems then ..............

 

[Floridianson]

Frank are you able to get the 60 psi minimum at the bleed screw. The primary was a 10 micron if I remember and that having little restriction the booster pump on the IP would have no problem pulling fuel through it. I just installed a Cat 2 micron filter on my Duramax and I already had a booster pump installed in line before the fuel filter. Now this Cat filter had to be used with a booster pump to push the fuel through it. It was not to be used as a suction pull through but a pressure push through is what the instructions said. They did not want to put a strain on the CP3 high pressure fuel pump and keep plenty of fuel flowing. I don't know but at my age I just follow the simple directions these days and it makes my life so much simpler. Tab A goes in slot B easy to follow instructions.

 

[DB556]

Well started cleaning the HH, so I go to remove the delivery screw and I'm getting ready to catch a flying spring and valve.
I pull the screw and the spring is just sitting there so I pull it out, there is no valve under the spring! How was this even running without the part?
Time for another ambac order, since I cant find the spider clips, there somewhere in my shop not worth hours of searching for a few dollar part.

 

[porkysplace]

Well started cleaning the HH, so I go to remove the delivery screw and I'm getting ready to catch a flying spring and valve.
I pull the screw and the spring is just sitting there so I pull it out, there is no valve under the spring! How was this even running without the part?
Time for another ambac order, since I cant find the spider clips, there somewhere in my shop not worth hours of searching for a few dollar part.

You will find them right after the new ones arrive.

 

[rustystud]

You will find them right after the new ones arrive.

Ain't that the truth !