Full hydro help needed...smart math people!

[JasonS]

Don't forget full hydro is illegal for street use.. . ..Fully power is easier to turn when it works.. but you have nothing when a hose blows. air assist helps but has hoses and a cylinder in harms way same as full hydro.You could savely and legally run a power steering box or a set up like what comes on old combines..It is basicly the same as air o matic but uses hydro and gives more boost.Heres a pic of a setup i was trying to win a few years ago

You can buy this type of setup off the shelf from Garrison but it is $$$$.

you mean like your brake system?

Sure, but someone else designed the brakes making it their flaw/liability. If I design a component that fails because it was faulty design/worksmanship (not suggesting that anybody would), seems like the liability falls in my lap.

 

[jesusgatos]

I know what it's like to have a balljoint fail and lose steering... what's your point? Think about it.

 

[jesusgatos]

Sure, but someone else designed the brakes making it their flaw/liability. If I design a component that fails because it was faulty design/worksmanship (not suggesting that anybody would), seems like the liability falls in my lap.

Yup, it's called personal accountability, and we're each responsible for ALL the modifications we make to our vehicles. Converting to full hydro doesn't concern me a bit because I know that I can do it safely. Not trying to encourage anyone else to get into anything beyond their abilities.

 

[mudguppy]

... Sure, but someone else designed the brakes making it their flaw/liability. ...

so, let me get this straight: if a brake hose blows on your deuce, then the family of the deceased will (successfully) sue AM General? and you, as the owner, are not responsible?



sorry, but that's not how things work.

 

[tm america]

i don't know how you think you could come up with a hydrualic line that could never break?..That is the weak link.But it is your truck and if it is a risk you are willing to take go for it..I will stick to things with back ups.. Good luck with it

 

[tm america]

so, let me get this straight: if a brake hose blows on your deuce, then the family of the deceased will (successfully) sue AM General? and you, as the owner, are not responsible?



sorry, but that's not how things work.

am general designed the truck with an emergency brake ans a manual trans to be able to get things stopped.. You want to put a steering system with no back up on there and you think you won't be sued and loose if someone gets hurt cuz it fails?am general put a power assist steering system on these truck it has a mechanical back up..Maybe they didn't want to explain to the family of the deceased how a broken hose killed their family member

 

[jesusgatos]

i don't know how you think you could come up with a hydrualic line that could never break?..That is the weak link.But it is your truck and if it is a risk you are willing to take go for it..I will stick to things with back ups.. Good luck with it

You want to tell me that balljoints never fail? There are a lot of mechanical components that make up a traditional steering system, but balljoints can and do fail and THERE ARE NO BACKUPS. **** breaks/fails, you're fuct. One way or the other. Design, build, maintain.

 

[jesusgatos]

am general designed the truck with an emergency brake ans a manual trans to be able to get things stopped.. You want to put a steering system with no back up on there and you think you won't be sued and loose if someone gets hurt cuz it fails?am general put a power assist steering system on these truck it has a mechanical back up..Maybe they didn't want to explain to the family of the deceased how a broken hose killed their family member

You obviously don't want to hear it, and you're even not following basic logic. No hard feelings or anything, but I'm done. Hope this is clear to everybody else.

 

[mudguppy]

... Maybe they didn't want to explain to the family of the deceased how a broken hose killed their family member

we're talking about brakes again, right?

oh, wait, that's right - when you need to panic brake (peak brake pressures) and a hose bursts, you're going to down-shift your way through the panic-stop. gotcha.

obviously you fail to see the logical connection, and therefore fatal (no pun intended) flaw in your argument, between single circuit braking and hydraulic steering systems. i get that.

but, to state that "AM General designed the truck with an emergency brake and manual trans to get things stopped" ?? well, first of all, nowhere is it called an 'emergency brake'; it's a park brake.

and secondly, ... man, i really don't even know where to begin explaining why a manual transmission is not a 'designed braking feature.'

 

[Unforgiven]

I understand how hydraulic-assisted steering setups usually work, but I'm not sure if I'm following you. Are you suggesting that you could adapt something to the steering column that would direct hydraulic fluid (pressure) to the ram? That's an interesting idea. Not sure I've ever seen anything like that before.

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

I'm thinking some kind of cog/sprocket/belt driven gears that places the steering valve off to the side of the manual steering column. (or inline-shaft steering valve if it is continuous through the valve & strong enough for Deuce manual steering if required)

A slight rotation of the stock steering shaft is transferred to the steering valve which, in turn, feeds the ram on the tie rod.

The size of the belt pulleys or cog gears could be used to fine tune the hydraulic assist so that the manual lock-to-lock and the hydraulic ram lock-to-lock are very close.

The PSC system would work IF the ram piggybacks on the tie rod.

I definitely would not want to remove the tie rod & replace it with the ram.

 

[Unforgiven]

On a side note,

I didn't start this thread to rehash the full-hydro-legality issue for the 10,000th time.

What I am suggesting is 100% stock Deuce manual steering, untouched, with a full-hydro system attached in parallel to it. Call it hydro-assist if you like, but I'm not suggesting replacing the steering box as a normal hydro-assist would require.

It would not be full hydro steering. It would be full manual steering with full hydro to help.

 

[tm america]

and secondly, ... man, i really don't even know where to begin explaining why a manual transmission is not a 'designed braking feature.' [/QUOTE]
ummm semi?who uses the brakes to slow down all the time ..it's called engine braking some trucks have a jake brake as well..i don't know why brakes have anything to do with installing a steering system that has no back up or mechanical link to the wheels..a brake failure is totally different than complete loose of steering..Go 55 and tryin stopping your truck with out touching the brake pedal... then go 55 and see what happens if the steering wheel turns all the way to the right or left instantly?i would bet most of the time you can stop the truck without brakes but you will almost always end up flipping or wrecking when the steering does it's own thing.You can argue it till you're blue in the face ...i'm just pointing out a real and obvious safety issue with full hydro steering.. ...A for a broken tie rod or ball joint there is a partial loose of steering not the same as if you lost a hydro line with full hydro.I've lost ball joints and tie rods.. even had a front tire fall off all together.. It causes the one tire to skid and some loose of steering. but not a full out instant turn to lock that you get with a failed hydro system

 

[jesusgatos]

Oh, NOW I understand what you're talking about. Using a regular orbital valve. I thought you were talking about something else, and was trying to imagine what those parts would look like and how they might work... So yes, I have seen this done before, or at least discussed. Don't remember, but I think it was on the Pirate forum. Can't think of any reason why that wouldn't work in any case.

No need to be concerned about using a double-ended ram with hydraulic assist. If you think about it, all you're doing is introducing two additional pivot-points. You could install a double-ended ram and connect the two front wheels with two shorted tie-rods, and it would function exactly like the stock tie-rod (if you didn't change anything else). There's also one big advantage to using a double-ended ram, as opposed to a singe-ended ram - the balance. A unbalanced single-ended ram isn't going to give you the same nice balanced feel that a double-ended ram will, when turning one direction vs. the other.

 

[jesusgatos]

blahblahblahblahblah

Lose the mechanical connection between the steering box and the driver's-side knuckle (drag-link) and you have a TOTAL loss of steering, same as if a hose were to blow-out on a full-hydro system. Seriously man, give it a rest. You're wrong, and you're spreading misinformation.

 

[tm america]

Lose the mechanical connection between the steering box and the driver's-side knuckle (drag-link) and you have a TOTAL loss of steering, same as if a hose were to blow-out on a full-hydro system. Seriously man, give it a rest. You're wrong, and you're spreading misinformation.

please show or tell me how i'm wrong when i say full hydro steering has no back up.or show me a hydro line that will never fail...if you want to prove me wrong show me one truck that came with full hydro steering from the factory?If not take a second to think why they didnt put them into production for street use.

 

[Unforgiven]

You could install a double-ended ram and connect the two front wheels with two shorted tie-rods, and it would function exactly like the stock tie-rod (if you didn't change anything else).

Does the tie rod have to be replaced with the double-ended ram? Take for example the full hydro PSC

Could this simply clamp onto the stock tie rod? And have the "orbital" steering valve actuated by a gear or pulley/belt on the steering shaft?

It seems to me it would take minimal torque to turn the steering valve. Not to be absurd, but a bicycle sprocket and chain would be more than enough torque to turn the "orbital" right? So some kind of cog/sprocket or belt coupling should work fine.

I'm asking about this method because I've pondered a liftable, powered, pusher axle that is steerable. Full hydro on the lift axle would be very easy to fine tune (angle of wheel turn) by simply changing the diameters of the gears/pulleys (running two independent hydro circuits of identical components). Just seems easier than trying to configure a dual-steer drag link, steering arms, etc.

 

[southdave]

Buses partial(bendy type) but they have a back up system and a manual mode everything else has orange and yellow triangle on it TM you got a point... I think he is right although I would love to tag out 639 pan for my going to work vehc.

 

[jesusgatos]

please show or tell me how i'm wrong when i say full hydro steering has no back up.or show me a hydro line that will never fail...if you want to prove me wrong show me one truck that came with full hydro steering from the factory?If not take a second to think why they didnt put them into production for street use.

Stupid me for getting sucked back into this, but please tell me how a hydro steering system without any backups is any different than a mechanical steering system without any backups. If you can't acknowledge that there is an equal potential for disastrous consequences if either system were to fail... well then I don't know what else to say. And yes, there have been several vehicles manufactured and sold with full hydro steering including some of the new unimogs and a whole slew of heavy trucks. Posted some of those examples in another thread, and sorry, but you'll have to dig that info up if you want to look into it further. MY whole point is that I don't get your point. Or rather, I think you're missing the point.

Does the tie rod have to be replaced with the double-ended ram? Take for example the full hydro PSC

Could this simply clamp onto the stock tie rod?

I guess you could piggyback, but I can't think of any reason why you'd want to do that. Would not end up being any safer or simpler. They do make balanced singe-ended rams, but they're really long, and mounting might be difficult? Or you could just live with the unbalanced ram. It's not really all that bad, and would be a lot better than nothing. But why are you so reluctant to replace the tie-rod with a double-ended ram and two shorter tie-ron links again?

 

[sewerzuk]

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

I'm thinking some kind of cog/sprocket/belt driven gears that places the steering valve off to the side of the manual steering column. (or inline-shaft steering valve if it is continuous through the valve & strong enough for Deuce manual steering if required)

A slight rotation of the stock steering shaft is transferred to the steering valve which, in turn, feeds the ram on the tie rod.

The size of the belt pulleys or cog gears could be used to fine tune the hydraulic assist so that the manual lock-to-lock and the hydraulic ram lock-to-lock are very close.

The PSC system would work IF the ram piggybacks on the tie rod.

I definitely would not want to remove the tie rod & replace it with the ram.

I posted this in the thread that you started with this specific question, but for everybody else who doesn't like to search (and because I think it is a cool unit and I'd like to see somebody try it out), here it is again:
Surplus Center - 9.7 CU IN STEERING VALVE (TORQUE GENERATOR)

 

[Unforgiven]

But why are you so reluctant to replace the tie-rod with a double-ended ram and two shorter tie-ron links again?

I guess because I don't know too much about hydraulic systems.

To idiot-proof it from myself I'm hoping to design a 100% bolt-on/bolt-off setup. I want to leave the manual setup as close to stock as possible.

I don't mind tack welding some mounts on the tie rod. I've also seen clamp on mounts. These are only used with single-ended rams fixed to the frame on one end?

I also didn't want to have to adjust the camber after swapping out tie rods. I have zero experience with steering alignments. I would assume that replacing the tie rod with a three piece ram would require some tweaking to bring the alignment back into specs.

So you're saying that in the case of hydraulic failure the manual steering would see the double-ended ram as a solid tie rod?