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generator to run house and well

Isaac-1

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National Elecrtic Code calls for a "transfer switch" to disconnect from utility and connect your house load to the genset. I was looking online today for one of these, I need a 100 amp unit, but these things seem to be way overpriced at $700+ . . . Where are the bargains? I need an outdoor one.
Look on ebay in the business industrial section for "double throw switch" many of these are rated for use as a manual transfer switch if you don't want/need an automatic switch, often more trouble than they are worth if anything goes wrong, I bought a 400 amp outdoor (NEMA 3R) one for my mother's house for about $250 a couple of months ago.

Ike
 

papercu

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I need a 100 amp unit, but these things seem to be way overpriced at $700+ . . . Where are the bargains? I need an outdoor one.
Check with a local electrical contractor, some may have used unit. Don't really need NEMA 3 enclosure if doing it yourself (unless your buiding code/insurance requires it) , you could just build a cover for it. Unless you are going to run a subpanel from it, it would need to be the same size as your service. Wayne
 

Isaac-1

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Speddmon, 3 phase power may be commonly available in rural areas where you live, however around here it is common to find single phase only service lines (2 wires) ran for miles from the larger 3 phase lines. I also tend to agree about 30KW being overall, 15-20KW is probably more reasonable for most larger houses, however sometimes you run across deals too good to pass up, like the 33KW Kohler I bought off govliquidation for $1,200.


Ike
 

Speddmon

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Ike,
I didn't say rural areas in my post, I mentioned suburban areas. But you are absolutely correct, where I live as well (very rural) they run what you're calling single phase for miles and miles as well. But you need to think of that single phase a little differently than what you do for a home. The utility uses 2 phases of the three out in rural areas (called "open wye"), typically 12470 volts phase to phase and 7200 volts phase to ground. They only use one phase leg going to your transformer on the pole which is 7200 volts. The transformer has a center tap ground on the secondary side to provide your home with 240 volts "phase to phase", while they are using only one phase on the primary side (see the attached picture).

By using the 2 phase legs this way they also have the ability to use multiply transformers "banked" together to produce 3 phase with an "open wye" primary side and either a standard wye or delta secondary side. I hope this clears things up a little without sounding like a smart--s.

I also agree with you about the deals being too good to pass up. Just keep in mind with larger liquid cooled diesels you can have a condition known as "wetstacking"

Wet stacking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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fxstbharleyrider

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I work in the electrical heavy industry. 3 phase for a house is a reciepe for fubar. Household electricty for residental is two 120 volt lines 180 degrees apart. Voltage to ground will be 120 volts from each line and 220 volts between lines. With a three phase each line will be 240 volts to ground and 480 between lines.
 

Speddmon

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drjconley said:
What is "wet stacking"?

Thanks

Jim Conley
Follow the link in my post.

Basically it's unburned fuel collecting in the exhaust of diesel engines not running at a high enough load.
 

steelandcanvas

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Make sure you bond and ground the system correctly. Seperately derived power sources can be very dangerous if not installed properly. God made electricians for a reason.
Thanks Dr. Greg for bringing that fact to the thread reader's attention. Electrical work is not a hobby, if you don't know what you're doing, call a licensed professional.
 

steelandcanvas

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then made a double male 10 gauge four wire connecting cable, and put a 50 amp breaker on the garage 220 circuit in the main panel (circuit wiring is 10 gauge).
DO NOT do this, "double males" are never a good idea!:roll: There is a reason NEMA has different plug and receptacle configurations.:idea: Also, with a 50 amp breaker, he should be using #6 AWG wire. If an ungrounded conductor goes to ground, that #10 AWG will get very hot before tripping that 50 amp breaker.:roll: Just my 2cents
 

rat4spd

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I work in the electrical heavy industry. 3 phase for a house is a reciepe for fubar. Household electricty for residental is two 120 volt lines 180 degrees apart. Voltage to ground will be 120 volts from each line and 220 volts between lines. With a three phase each line will be 240 volts to ground and 480 between lines.
The POCO isn't going to offer up 480 Wye to a homeowner. 240 Delta would be potentially disastrous to a DIY'er due to the red leg.

Edited to correct brainfart as pointed out.......
 
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NEIOWA

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240 Wye is fine if a person wanted three phase in a home. Why you would go three phase in a home is a mystery, but hey, if it's available and you want to build it, they'll give it to you.

"Home?" How about shop/garage/shed/guy cave? To run a lathe or other machine tool. To run a ground source heat pump or any "real" motor.

If you do anything electrical beyond running Susie Homemaker's junk you need 3ph. Man up guy. Grunt like Tim the Toolman Taylor and get REAL electricity. Or just stick to that hybrid with the lawnmower engine and stay away from that nasty smelly diesel stuff. It'll ruin the manicure and stain your dress.
 

rat4spd

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"Home?" How about shop/garage/shed/guy cave? To run a lathe or other machine tool. To run a ground source heat pump or any "real" motor.

If you do anything electrical beyond running Susie Homemaker's junk you need 3ph. Man up guy. Grunt like Tim the Toolman Taylor and get REAL electricity. Or just stick to that hybrid with the lawnmower engine and stay away from that nasty smelly diesel stuff. It'll ruin the manicure and stain your dress.
I'll man up when I show up at the plant Thursday, and make some electricity. So get a job making electricity before you tell me to man up and get it. People like me are who you get it from.
 
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DaveKamp

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My suggestion

Okay, I'll throw in a few notes here.

FIRST: NEC does NOT REQUIRE a TRANSFER SWITCH.

NEC requires that the UTILITY side and an AUXILIARY source cannot be simultaniously connected.

At one time, the only method deemed acceptable by most inspectors, was to have a mechanical transfer switch.

NOW, there is a much less expensive, but very effective method: A generator backfeed interlock kit installed on your main breaker panel. This is an accessory manufactured by most panel manufacturers, and some aftermarkets- it is a UL-listed/NEC compliant device which mounts into the panel and prevents both the MAIN and GENERATOR BACKFEED breakers from being closed at the same time. I've been installing these for the last three years, recently installed one in a Square-D QO panel, the kit was $64.00 at my local Graybar store. What they DON'T do, is automatic transfer, line detection, or any other fancy stuff- strictly manual.

Next: Diesel, Gas, Propane, and Natural Gas are all viable fuels. Small generators and large generators both work fine. Three phase and single will both work. Which one you choose is totally dependant on circumstances. Here's things to keep in mind:

Air cooled generators are loud, but light. Liquid cooled are quiet, but heavy. Air cooled engines don't have coolant to freeze, liquid cooled engines tend to last longer.

3600rpm generators are usually louder than 1800 and 1200rpm generators.

Gasoline becomes varnishy, and absorbs moisture.
Diesel fuel grows algae.
Propane requires a special delivery truck
Natural gas depends on a pipeline.

EVERY TYPE of engine can sit for years without problems... but that doesn't mean they always will.

Carbeurated engines have float bowls that get cruddy, but carbs are cheap and easy to rebuild... typically have four or five moving parts total.

Gas-fueld engines (Propane and NG) have MIXERs, which are cheap, simple, and generally only have one moving part that is field-replaceable. Propane and NG doesn't get cruddy- leave propane in a bottle for 60 years, it's still propane when it comes out.

Spark-ignition engines (gasoline, kero, propane, NG) that have MAGNETOs will start without a battery. Magnetos have moving parts. Same engine with battery-coil will start nicely, but generally, an electric starter is used.

Odd-output generators are DIRT CHEAP. a liquid-cooled 15kva 240-Delta gennie will power most any home, and can be found for a couple hundred bucks. I installed a 208/125Y ex-Civil Defense unit (4-cyl Herc) in my neighbor's house for $600. With 380hrs on the clock, it was a steal.

208/125Y (Three-phase) will power a 240/120 single-phase house using two of the three hot legs and one neutral. As noted above, there'll be a little de-rate (since you're only using 2/3rds, OR you can make a third 'circuit'... but chances are not likely that you'll really 'need' that much load for a typical house.

ANY three-phase arrangement can be resolved with an appropriate application of a transformer.

When you have a power outage, consider:

What do you really NEED to operate? Don't use the electric range: use the charcoal grill. Don't use the electric dryer, hang 'em on a line. If it's wintertime, don't worry about the fridge- keep it closed, and slide it outside. Get back to the basics: well water, sump pumps, furnace.

Next- consumption.

ANY engine-driven synchronous AC generator, regardless of type or design, will require a certain 'minimum' amount of fuel just to run, even with no load. AS a load is applied, the governor will increase fuel feed to maintain proper frequency, and fuel consumption will rise. Eventually, load will increase to the point where either the generator can carry no more current, or the fuel delivery system will send in no more fuel, or the engine or generator no longer maintain thermal stability... hence, the maximum limits have been reached.

Obviously, if you can't flow any more fuel, or your fuel supply runs out, you're dead-in-the-water, so choose a fuel source you can obtain under bad circumstances. Most folks who buy gasoline or diesel-powered generators are met with serious disappointment when their stored fuel supply is depleted or no longer viable (contaminated or gelled), and the local retail stations are either out (panic buyers) or without electricity to vend. Propane delivery trucks get snowed-in, and NG lines get shut off when natural disasters rearrange the landscape. To their merit, gasoline and diesel are easy to buy and transport in 5-gallon cans. Propane is typically inexpensive, can be bulk-delivered (mine 1000 gallons at a time), and Natural Gas goes anywhere the pipeline flows. One fortunate bonus of NG, is that NG pumping stations are frequently powered by NG! Pick your poison carefully here.

If your generator unit is mil-spec, industrial-duty, etc., it will usually have an 'overload rating'... meaning, so-many-percent overload for so many hours. This is akin to 'duty cycle' on a welder- they can run continuously (and maintain proper temperature) up to a certain load level, and if you need extra, it'll tolerate it for X hours before needing to return to 'continous' load. As a result of this, you'll essentially 'never' find a bona-fide 'overload' rating on something purchased from a big-box store. Your 3000w pull-start gen has a 5000w 'surge' rating... don't expect miracles. It may survive a start-surge of 5kw, but the generator will sag tremendously while doing so. A properly rated generator will make that start with no change.

Last few notes:
Powerful generators aren't light. They're heavy.
Quiet generators aren't light. They're heavy too.

A GOOD generator, is one that accurately matches your load demand, using the best balance of fuel consumption, noise level, surge capacity, space consumption, and cost.

A BAD generator is one that is either under or over-capacity, using too much fuel consumption, too loud, unstable, too big, and too expensive.

The WORST generator, is one that won't start when you need it, uses fuel you can't get, provides insufficient power, and requires constant supervision.

So for my friends- my biggest recommendation for genuine 'emergency backup' power... if you CAN do it:
--Liquid cooled, 4-cylinder
--5-15kw capable at single-phase (either 240/120 or two of a 208/125Y)
--Gasoline, NG, or propane
--Magneto-ignition, with hand crank for emergency start
--Manual-only transfer using interlock on backfeed breaker.
--Ex Civil-Defense, public safety, or mil-spec surplus
--Start and run for at least one hour, every month.
--Size a fuel tank to hold approximately twice the amount of time which you'd expect to be without commercial utility power.
--IF liquid-fuel, use said tank to provide supply fuel for lawn equipment and your vehicles and small equipment- and add fuel to this tank on regular intervals to maintain 'freshness'.


And for those that are 'off grid'- go liquid-cooled, and remove the radiator. Instead, run the coolant into a heat-exchanger, transport this waste heat to your hydronic radiant heating system.:wink:
 

DaveKamp

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And...

I have plenty of three-phase machines at my house... if I had commercial 3ph, I'd certainly use it, but the utilco wouldn't pull it from the pole to my box, so I VFD'd most of my arsenal, and the remainder runs off a self-starting 20hp RPC.
 

Speddmon

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DaveKamp said:
NOW, there is a much less expensive, but very effective method: A generator backfeed interlock kit installed on your main breaker panel. This is an accessory manufactured by most panel manufacturers, and some aftermarkets- it is a UL-listed/NEC compliant device which mounts into the panel and prevents both the MAIN and GENERATOR BACKFEED breakers from being closed at the same time. I've been installing these for the last three years, recently installed one in a Square-D QO panel, the kit was $64.00 at my local Graybar store. What they DON'T do, is automatic transfer, line detection, or any other fancy stuff- strictly manual.
Now your getting down to semantics...what you described is in fact, in layman's terms "a manual transfer switch". "A rose by any other name..."

That was a very informative post, and I'm sure it will help many members with their choices in the future. I guess what it boils down to is simply that each person is going to buy the best they can afford, unless they have specific design criteria in mind.

I am very interested in the transfers you are talking about though. I make it a point to not get involved with residential wiring, and just stick to the industrial stuff, unless it's for myself or a close friend. So some of the newer products out there are really new to me. I would like to find out more about them since I need to install one eventually in my house, so the wife can get the back-up power on if i'm away from home.
 
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