generator to run house and well

[mangus580]

[FONT=&quot]Generator InterLock Kit[/FONT]

 

[rat4spd]

That's a pretty neat kit there, but I can't justify paying $149 for a few pieces of sheet metal when a small MBT isn't too much more than that.

I guess if you factor in labor from re-routing your vitals to the breakers in an MBT bkr box, it might be worth it.

 

[DaveKamp]

Yes, it IS a manual-only option... so if someone needs full automatic transfer, it is NOT a suitable replacement. Very few residential situations demand full automatic transfer, and if you look at the various methods people use to establish emergency power (including, but certainly not limited to extension cords, double-males, pulling meters and main breakers), they're obviously not asking for automatic.

The rediculous and unfortunate, is that a manual transfer switch (a big DPDT) is practically as expensive as an automatic transfer switch... I can't understand why, because the DPDT is little more than a big single with an extra set of contacts... but they're WAY overpriced. Furthermore, per NEC code, any transfer switch that occurs PRIOR to the main breaker, must be rated capable of the full service current limit... meaning, a 200A service demands a 200A transfer switch... as if you were going to have a 50kva generator ready to eat you out of house-and-home.

It is under these circumstances that Average Joe will shy at the cost, and use one of the not-so-safe-or-convenient methods noted above, and hook in a 4200w pull-start air-cooled gen.

The interlock is by FAR cheaper, and so simple to install. From what I've experienced, the aftermarket kits are a bit pricer (about twice) than ones made by the panel manufacturers, but still substantially less expensive than a transfer switch, and definately the easiest way to go when faced with an existing service panel where the manufacturer doesn't have their own kit. Call your local Graybar, ask for a price on a QO, and you'll see that it's about $70.

While it may not seem like much, pulling the meter and installing an MBT, then re-installing the meter is a much more invasive solution than installing a backfeed breaker, wiring, and the interlock plate. In most cases, pulling the meter or unhooking the service means permits, an electrical inspection, etc... which is much more invasive. It also means that a homeowner may face serious scrutiny for 'grandfathered' conditions... a can of worms they may not be able to solve. Either way, it's a matter of making choices based on prevaling conditions. For the dozen-and-a-half that've asked me to fit 'em up emergency power, the interlock breaker scheme was the best overall option in all but two cases. In the remainder, they were agricultural with generator in a remote building, the other being residential and already having purchased a big-box air-cooled twin-cylinder microprocessor-controlled unit.

(and as an aside- the first storm for the micro-controlled unit included a nearby lightning stroke, which promptly wiped out the control MCU, rendering it totally inoperative, so I towed down a crank-start/mag fired antique)

Here's an aftermarket source:
Panel Interlock Kits

And if you check the major (Siemens, Square-D, GE, etc), you'll find that most now have accessory kits. Square D QO and HOMline kits are easy-to-get from local supply houses (BTW I do not recomend HOMline panels and breakers... just noting this in case you're stuck with one). Here's a few more links:


Generator Interlock Kit

Generator InterLock Kit

Transfer Switches & Manual Interlock Kits

 

[OPCOM]

I got a real good deal for you on a fixer-upper..
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/auxillary-equipment/35844-generator-trailer-burnt-ground.html

 

[Wrench Wench]

And for those that are 'off grid'- go liquid-cooled, and remove the radiator. Instead, run the coolant into a heat-exchanger, transport this waste heat to your hydronic radiant heating system.

You have my attention, sir. Please, do tell me more about this diesel genset cooling loop to hydronic radiant floor heating connection. What do you do in the summer?

 

[DaveKamp]

Cooling loop...

Hi Wench!

Okay, it doesn't HAVE to be diesel for heating, it can be any IC engine, compression ignition or spark, or even steam.

The concept is simple- I live in the country, our primary heating fuel is propane. When my power goes out, I'm forced to run an electric generator to provide electricity to power my furnace, lest it will not heat the house. This means I'm burning some sort of fuel in the generator, AS WELL AS fuel in the furnace.

My generators USED to be gasoline powered- now they're all propane, for the primary reason of delivery and capacity- I can put 800 gallons in each tank, and no matter how long it sits, the fuel will not go bad... and even with my supply half gone, I still have plenty of fuel to outlast even the worst ice storms and outages... but that doesn't make it cheap...

So what I'm doing, is recapturing what heat the generators would otherwise discard as waste. One gallon of propane equates to about 91kbtu, and about 80% of that thermal energy becomes waste heat... that's 72kbtu... and my house furnace is only 60kbtu- I'm wasting more heat running the GENERATOR, than I'm getting from the furnace...

So, nix the radiator, and send the coolant through a heat exchanger with a 200-gallon tank, and then use said tank as thermal storage and transfer into the house at 3gpm, running 160F or so INTO the house, and returning at 120F... that's a 40F drop at 3gpm (or 24lbs/min, 1440lbs/hr). 40 degrees @ 1440lbs/hr = 57600btu/hr! SO... put a thermostatic switch on the in-house heat tube... whenever inlet temp is above 140F, it disables the gas valve circuit in the furnace, and just runs the fan and hydronic pumps.

But this is really an alternative suppliment... when not on emergency power, but for those times when I'm home, I use a wood-burning furnace (which is actually same as the heat-exchanger for generators). Damper is thermostatically regulated to prevent water temp from exceeding 170F... but usually I just stoke the heck out of the furnace, and let it make hot water. The generators are on the opposite side of a fire-wall, but heated by heat-exchanger, so they're always ready and warm-to-go, so no warmup time when power goes out.

Cooing cycle... that's the tough part. I haven't resolved that YET, but a clue of where I'm currently pointing- in prior decades, a popular refrigerant was... propane! Like any other refrigerant, it's centered on change-of-state (liquid to gas to liquid). Early home refrigerators (and even modern RV fridges) use propane refrigerant, and they have no moving parts... just adding heat to one side of a circuit to make it do it's thing. I'll do mathematical analysis and physical experimentation to determine if a heat-infusion based cooling system can be made on big enough scale to be effective for air-conditioning. If so, I don't see any reason why a solar furnace couldn't be employed to provide off-grid cooling.

In the meantime, one segment of my home is a combination passive solar collector AND thermal 'tank'. Orientation of this room with respect to sun pathways and deciduous trees make it a substantial solar absorber in the late half of the equinoxes. During the summer, the room is NEVER illuminated, mostly by solar inclination, but the extreme low-angle morning sun is blocked by a leafy tree. Beneath the (dark black) concrete floor, is 70 tons of crushed lime and dirt, surrounded at exterior perimeter by 2" styrofoam, going down 8 feet. Once this thermal mass reaches a given temperature, it really doesn't change. It's position in the house causes it to heat or cool the house by convection. If my observations (of this winter) and estimations are even close, it should be at LEAST the second week of august before we need to turn on air-conditioning. If, instead of mechanical AC, I opt to drill a second well for hydronic cooling, we probably won't need AC at all... ever.

 

[AN/ARC186]

Just a reminder, ANY modification or addition to a residential electrical system requires a permit and inspection. adding a new gen input breaker, interlock device and associated wiring and devices falls into this.

Yeah, I know, permits are a pain in the butt, and doing the job to code is expensive but how much is your home worth? do you have enough money to replace it and its contents when the insurance company denies your claim due to improper/illegally installed wiring. More importantly, do you want to explain to your better half how much money you saved doing it half arsed as you all stand outside watching your home go up in flames?

I've seen it happen, no one needs this.

There is nothing wrong with DIY, just do it right.

 

[Speddmon]

Just a reminder, ANY modification or addition to a residential electrical system requires a permit and inspection. adding a new gen input breaker, interlock device and associated wiring and devices falls into this

That is not necessarily the case. The permit requirement is dependent on what state you live in. The only time I am required to pull a permit is for a service change. If i'm only adding circuits, or doing minor modifications there is no requirement to pull a permit. Heck, I live way out in the country, I built my garage (28x40 with a full 18x8x40 loft above in a gambrel roof), by myself, wired it, and then moved the 100 amp main service from the house to be a sub panel out of the new 200 amp main service in the garage and never pulled a permit or got any kind of inspections done. My Co-op electric company didn't even come out to inspect the service change, they just sent the linemen out to do it one afternoon. I was without power for a grand total of 5 minutes that day (long enough for them to walk the meter from the old base on the house to the new base on the garage and reinstall it).

 

[DaveKamp]

Yes, and no... NEC code notes (second paragraph, I believe) that it is not law, that all final decisions fall to the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ), in which the question of required permits falls upon the AHJ.

MOST localities will require a permit-pull and subsequent inspection for anything involving disconnection of a service, pulling a meter, etc. Rural locations and industrial customers are typically the exception.

One distinct advantage to the interlock kit, is that, for AHJs not scrutinizing non-meter-pull operations, a permit may not be required. Furthermore, when a backfeed breaker is installed, it is behind both the feedpoint breaker, and the main breaker, hence the isolation of problem occurs behind two protective layers.

Now, for the insurance company issue- yes, there's always a question of coverage. Keep in mind, however, that when ANY type of loss-claim occurs, the insurance company will do it's unsaid guaranteed part to look for some reason NOT to cover a loss. The concept of insurance company loss management used to be to support their customer, the modern equivalent is to justify high premiums, and deny the greatest amount of claim, whilst maintaining the lowest amount of courtroom costs.

To compound this issue, an insurance provider can, with very little effort, put a claim in limbo by suggesting that ANYTHING in the claimed area was the result of negligence or mishandling by the claimant... meaning... I have a 90 year old house, and there's six circuits of original knob-and-tube in there, and twentyish others added by others at various times, few of which I've ever seen the other end of, and none of which were ever inspected by anyone. Then there's MY circuits, which are flawless. An adjuster or fire inspector could look at that box, and point the finger at ME for something that was in place long before I was born... and how would I prove that it wasn't my doing?

The first thing I did when I bought the property, was cut all the lines feeding outbuildings. Of seven outbuildings, five had live wires coming in, but no neutrals going out, and no grounds. ONE of the others had live AND neutral, but there was a 40v difference between one hot and the other, and a varying voltage-to-ground when I applied a load. (snip!). I trenched to every building, dropped in conduit (down 6'!), installed new 100A subpanels and pulled 200A's worth of wire. I photographed every step of the way. Inspections/permits required? NONE.

The best plan, is to build it right- meaning, overbuild, and document it to the most finite point, so when they DO decide not to give you any of your money back, you have an endless file of documentation supporting that everything was done right.

The best hope, is that the first maxim (Build it right!) serves better insurance than what the company, and latter maxim, is able to provide... a no-fire, no-injury, and no-loss (aside from years of premiums paid for naught).

 

[swbradley1]

That is not necessarily the case. The permit requirement is dependent on what state you live in. The only time I am required to pull a permit is for a service change. If i'm only adding circuits, or doing minor modifications there is no requirement to pull a permit. Heck, I live way out in the country, I built my garage (28x40 with a full 18x8x40 loft above in a gambrel roof), by myself, wired it, and then moved the 100 amp main service from the house to be a sub panel out of the new 200 amp main service in the garage and never pulled a permit or got any kind of inspections done. My Co-op electric company didn't even come out to inspect the service change, they just sent the linemen out to do it one afternoon. I was without power for a grand total of 5 minutes that day (long enough for them to walk the meter from the old base on the house to the new base on the garage and reinstall it).

You are lucky. I have to a certain type of probe in the rear area if I even mention electricity in the Dayton area. Now I find out I may have to double the size of my underground cable because the 200 amp cable isn't large enough for a 200 amp service. Even better, you have to put a light outside the entry way door to the barn with the switch on the inside so you can get in after dark.

Yes, I wrote that correctly, the morons want an outside entry light with a switch on the inside. Well duh, how do you turn the light on when it's dark and you are outside PEOPLE????

That's what happens when you let highly educated people make policies and regulations WITHOUT regard to any common sense..........


I probably need a permit to even write this message.

 

[Speddmon]

swbradley1,

Don't feel too bad, I have a friend from work who lives just outside of Canton, OH. They have AEP power up there. His neighbor wanted to do something very similar to what I did. Meaning he build a nice garage on some property he just bought. Hoping to have the garage up and have the main service in it before he built his house. So he put up the garage, had a line trenched all the way from the street to the building and wire put in it, only to call AEP and find out that they will NOT run a main service into an unoccupied building. The main service by them must go to the house first.

At least you didn't waist a ton of money like the guy I mentioned did.

Living out in the country does have it's advantages!!!!

 

[swbradley1]

Sigh.....I am in the country. Sometimes I just wonder which one.

 

[rat4spd]

Yes, I wrote that correctly, the morons want an outside entry light with a switch on the inside. Well duh, how do you turn the light on when it's dark and you are outside PEOPLE????


Three way, or else, do like I do, and turn the light on before it gets dark, or like my front porch, have it on a photocell. My Garage and shop lights are all on three ways.

 

[DaveKamp]

only to call AEP and find out that they will NOT run a main service into an unoccupied building. The main service by them must go to the house first.

This is clearly a case of the person behind the desk not having a clue. There's an entire section in NEC which covers subjects like 'temporary power' and 'unattached services', wherin a weatherhead on a pole feeds a meter and panel, which is then distributed. Agricultural services have predominantly been, and currently remain of this type... a meter-pole in the middle of a lot, with power coming to it, and then a main switch/breaker, with overhead feeders going to farmhouse(s) and outbuilding(s). This is the most common agricultural service setup, and farmers with auxiliary generators oftentimes mount the generator feedpoint here, too!

Furthermore, in a commercial or light industrial, there is no 'occupancy' aside from housed machinery... so there should be no reason for the representative to stonewall that installation.

To prove my example, find a customer conformant to said policy, who has a main panel, in the main residence, with 4 100A circuit breakers in-panel, each feeding a 40' tall grain drying bin... you won't- 'cause it's very dangerous practice to have that kind of distribution in a residential panel... not only due to the panel size, but because of all the big wires penetrating and hanging-off the residence. These are all situations of standard fare, and very well covered by every electrician's handbook. The AEP representative is clearly inexperienced or misunderstood the situation.

The ONLY excuse, would be that the rep THOUGHT the customer was amidst building something and had not completed construction. Oftentimes, the word 'occupancy' means the building has been inspected and awarded a 'Certificate of Occupancy', meaning, all inspections passed. If that was the situation, the rep didn't realize that the structure was exempt from a Certificate of Occupancy. Most agricultural areas have some level of 'agricultural exemption'. The agent MUST be aware of these situations, because an inspector/AHJ will ignore requests for action in properties/situations that are agriculturally exempt.

I think this was a case of poor communication, jumping to conclusions, and infamiliarity with codes, procedure, and SOP... probably topped off by a little arrogance.

When something like this happens, one of the better ways to deal with it, is to find a local utility line crew, and have a chat with 'em. Oftentimes, if they're within sight of what you're trying to do, they'll tell you HOW to 'call it in'. One way to handle it (especially if the agent appears to be a total moron), is to call in a request to have your utility line temporarily unhooked for tree/building maintenance. WHEN the line crew gets there, have 'em look at it, explain what you really want to do, and then work it out from there. IF you've already laid in all the proper stuff, they'll tell you if it looks right. They might swap it over and move your meter... or they may tell you they can't do anything 'till after you've done x steps. At least, at that point, you'll have the experienced field guys right there, looking at it, and telling you what they think. Much better to have that, than someone inexperienced sitting at a desk.

 

[Speddmon]

The gentleman in question wasn't trying to hook up a farm service. He did want to mount the meter base right on the side of the garage. AEP WILL NOT DO THIS! It seems you are very well versed in the NEC and dealing with your local utilities, but it's a little different for every utility. The utility companies don't give a rats butt about what the NEC says other than if the installation meets code or not. BUT that still doesn't mean that they can't have there own rules and regulations for hooking up a service. This installation clearly violates the utilities rules. My buddy I mentioned is also an industrial electrician, and does a ton of residential work on the side in that area. When he told me about his neighbors delema, he also mentioned that it's just one of AEP's rules around this area to not install a meter on a garage.

 

[rat4spd]

My POCO will gladly put a meter on a garage, providing you already have the service trenched to the pole with enough wire to get up it also.

Much cheaper just to run it off the house.

By the way, 2009 is bringing a lot of unpleasant changes to industrial code.

 

[Speddmon]

2009 is bringing many unpleasant changes to all aspects of the code, especially if you're building a new house.

My POCO will do just about anything my devilish mind can imagine, just one of the advantages of belonging to a CO-OP and letting them know you're an electrician...I got a transformer upgrade within 24 hours with just a phone call

 

[rat4spd]

2009 is bringing many unpleasant changes to all aspects of the code, especially if you're building a new house.

I have just two word....."Arc Flash...."

Imagine a fan that you have to throw a switch right at the motor control center to start, 480V, 5hp or so, they've been doing it like that for 25 years. Now because of the new arc flash requirements, you must wear 100% cotton long sleeve shirt, leather gloves, with rubber liners, EH boots, faceshield.......

Just to turn a motor on.

Checking voltages in live panels is also a real treat.

 

[Speddmon]

Got news for ya buddy, the company I work for has been prepping us for it for the last 2 years. I have more "arc" protective clothing at work than I care to think about. Got the face shields, we get brand new high voltage gloves every 6 months, special uniforms that they take care of for us, we have to wear long sleeves anyway because of the molten steel (like that's gonna help). On top of that, don't forget the fall protection. Everybody just loves the fall protection harnesses!!!!

 

[DaveKamp]

The utility companies don't give a rats butt about what the NEC says other than if the installation meets code or not. BUT that still doesn't mean that they can't have there own rules and regulations for hooking up a service. This installation clearly violates the utilities rules. ....it's just one of AEP's rules around this area to not install a meter on a garage.

You're absolutely correct- there's no preventing any level of authority or service from applying their own restriction or regulation. Not installing on a garage seems like an asanine rule- I frequently see lots wherin only a garage or non-residential building sits, and electric power IS provided there... and furthermore, if a gent has a house with 200A service, and wants a separate 200A service to feed his garage/shop, shouldn't he be able to be a customer there too?

(This actually, is what I had at my previous property- I had a 100A service and meter on the house, and a 300A service on the garage... two separate feeds. They initially asked why 300A on the garage, I told them that said service would be feeding that garage (workshop) and another garage (workshop) in the back of the property. Clearly the house couldn't be upgraded (grandfathered and lack of service-panel space), and the second meter was essentially necessary for accurately billing costs to my tenant.

Last time I checked, electric utilities were in the business of providing service and selling energy to ALL customers- residential, commercial, industrial, institutuional, governmental... that entails being flexible to the customer's conditions and circumstances. By your description, AEP is either not interested in such business ventures, or needs to invest in some new grey matter.