Harmonic balancer and waterpump

[Rutjes]

My friend's M1008 started to have a loud rattle. We pinpointed it to be coming from the harmonic balancer. It looked ok, but we decided to remove it and try the one from my old 6.2 (just to be able to run the truck until all parts for the serpentine swap are complete). Upon removing we noticed the balancer was rubbing the water pump housing. How can this happen? My old balancer does the same. There seems to be no play on the shaft.

Can these go out of round or does the rubber get stretchy (can't get any movement in it by hand tho) making the outer ring bounce around? The waterpump was replaced a couple of years ago and the bottom housing seems straight where others have a little curve there. If it is the waterpump housing, the rattle should've been there before. Pretty sure we would've noticed the rather loud rattling tho so I kinda doubt that that is the issue.

Any ideas?

 

[2INSANE]

Yes the harmonic balancer can go out of round. I have 2 of them in my shop right now. I’ll get pics for ya. Your buddy going to do the dual alternator set up?

Here’s one of my 6.2’s with only 60k...

Here’s my 6.5 with 214k...

Note the rubber is pushing out where some rubber is sucked in?

Fluidamper is a must have unless one likes to replace the harmonic balancer every 50k or so?

 

[Rutjes]

Yes the harmonic balancer can go out of round. I have 2 of them in my shop right now. I’ll get pics for ya. Your buddy going to do the dual alternator set up?

We decided to convert to 12V (sorry Rick). I don't think converting the CS130/140 alternators to isolated ground is very do-able. For now we'll install the setup as is, single alternator. Later on we might add the second one, either as an in-place spare or to charge it's own battery which will power lights etc. and have the existing batteries just for glowing and starting.

By the way, single thermostat crossover will not working with the newer style serpentine belt drive. Rick if your reading this, I don't think I'll be needing the crossover I PM'ed you about... Dual thermostat crossover will work, but will require modifying the throttle cable bracket.

 

[frank8003]

If the harmonic balancer is in question at all as to whether it be good, it probably is failing and needs to be renewed. Should not be substituted for something that fits. It by design stops the engine from killing itself.

 

[Keith_J]

Dampers are three pieces, the hub, the rim and the rubber in between which binds these two masses with a torsional spring and damper.
If the ring has slipped back, the damper is gone.
Rubber hardens over time. The bond to the steel then fails.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

We decided to convert to 12V (sorry Rick).

Make sure you replace all your battery cables with larger cables. (Yes, your ground cables, too.)

Your engine will require the same amount of energy to turn it over whether the starter is 120v, 48v, 24v, or 12v. The load is the same regardless of the voltage used to drive the starter motor. It's the load that determines how much power is required to move it.

To get the same amount of energy to the starter motor at 12v will require twice the amperage of a 24v system. Half the voltage, twice the amperage. That's how it works.

The stock cables are sized for the amperage needed for 24v. They will starve your starter motor.

Will it work with the stock cables? Yes, for a while, but you'll go through starters and become one of those who complains that converting to 12v is a bad idea.

 

[chevymike]

Exactly what Marcus is saying. Half the volts, double the current. Upsize your starter, battery and ground cables. I actually bought 2/0 for when I redo mine.

 

[Rutjes]

Don't worry guys. I made heavy duty battery cables for my K1500 a while ago. I believe about 2 to 3 times stock size, 25mm² and 75mm² (4 AWG and 2/0 AWG). Using the same cables for the M1008.

I will try and get some pictures of the waterpump and balancer tomorrow. You can tell they rubbed by looking at the waterpump and balancer.

We removed everything on the front of the engine, including the timing cover and oil pan. Now we have to wait for parts, including new balancer, pulley, chain, and waterpump. Blasted and painted all serpentine belt drive brackets. Next we'll work on the cables and remove/redo most of the wiring the previous owner added. What a mess!

Here's a before and after of the starter relay wiring. Before is crappy wiring and a 70A relay that made the starter go wild while bleeding the fuel system. After is improved wiring and a 200A relay.



Some more pictures, I didn't take many:



Might as well turn this thread into a build thread now!

 

[Keith_J]

200 amp? Overkill for certain.

 

[Garagefull]

Make sure you replace all your battery cables with larger cables. (Yes, your ground cables, too.)

Your engine will require the same amount of energy to turn it over whether the starter is 120v, 48v, 24v, or 12v. The load is the same regardless of the voltage used to drive the starter motor. It's the load that determines how much power is required to move it.

To get the same amount of energy to the starter motor at 12v will require twice the amperage of a 24v system. Half the voltage, twice the amperage. That's how it works.

The stock cables are sized for the amperage needed for 24v. They will starve your starter motor.

Will it work with the stock cables? Yes, for a while, but you'll go through starters and become one of those who complains that converting to 12v is a bad idea.

I thought ohms law was a secret that all electricians Had to take with them to their death. Lol

 

[Rutjes]

200 amp? Overkill for certain.

I don't want another runaway starter. And isn't 200A recommended in everyone's favorite CUCV upgrade, the Doghead Relay Mod?

 

[Recovry4x4]

Overkill is good. You will never complain about 200A. I like your shop. It looks snug but comfortable. Like mine, if you need to remove axle shafts, something has to get out of the way.

 

[LT67]

It's a wise idea to go ahead and swap in a new harmonic balancer on any 6.2 diesel. These engines are 30 plus years old and while the rubber may look fine, it's dried and hardened. A new unit makes a world of difference. I did it to both of mine and I'm glad I did.

 

[chevymike]

I replaced mine with a Fluidamper unit, just for safety. As it was, my low mileage (15K) engine showed that the rubber had started to crack and split out of the balancer. From the front it looked fine.

M1010 balancer


Here is one off another project that when the pulley was on, it looked fine but once removed, how bad it was.



Backside

 

[Sharecropper]

Yeah swapping in a new Fluidampr was the first thing I done to my M1028 in 2010. My engine only had 12,338 miles when I got it. A little north of 15,000 now. My new P400 came from GEP with a new GM damper but I said, wth, might as well install a Fluidampr on there as well. So I have spent over $1,000 on Fluidamprs and have a brand new GM laying here on my parts bench. How sick is that?

 

[Rutjes]

Fluidampr is going on my Optimizer 6.5 for sure (and the 6.5 in the K1500 as well) eventually. Still have to limit my spending, having less work due to Covid.

My friend has only had this truck for a couple of weeks now, but I already spent close to €3000 of his savings on his truck . Good thing he saved up well.

I like your shop. It looks snug but comfortable. Like mine, if you need to remove axle shafts, something has to get out of the way.

I had to get a place for my business after starting in April last year. For the rent it costs it's spacey and I added 2 floors, doubling the square footage. It's getting a little too snug now though. If it was just a couple of feet wider... Hopefully this pandemic will be over soon and I can work on getting my numbers up and maybe get something a tiny bit larger of my own in a couple of years...



Can you tell where it rubbed? This pump is straight where it rubbed, all other pumps I can compare it too have a small curve there. Chinese knock-off the previous owner installed? The marks left on the damper don't go all the way round, so I guess it's out of round.

Bonus pics:

 

[chevymike]

So do you have a serpentine belt setup or V belt? Looking at the two pulleys, I would say serpentine. If so, do you have the correct water pump, as they are reverse rotation. Also serpentine belt is not stock for any CUCV series trucks.

 

[Rutjes]

So do you have a serpentine belt setup or V belt? Looking at the two pulleys, I would say serpentine. If so, do you have the correct water pump, as they are reverse rotation. Also serpentine belt is not stock for any CUCV series trucks.

It is (was) V belt, but we are changing it to serpentine. A FlowKooler CCW pump has been ordered.

 

[LT67]

I just used Dorman factory OEM style balancers. They worked just fine.

 

[Jake59]

Fluidampr is going on my Optimizer 6.5 for sure (and the 6.5 in the K1500 as well) eventually. Still have to limit my spending, having less work due to Covid.

My friend has only had this truck for a couple of weeks now, but I already spent close to €3000 of his savings on his truck . Good thing he saved up well.



I had to get a place for my business after starting in April last year. For the rent it costs it's spacey and I added 2 floors, doubling the square footage. It's getting a little too snug now though. If it was just a couple of feet wider... Hopefully this pandemic will be over soon and I can work on getting my numbers up and maybe get something a tiny bit larger of my own in a couple of years...

View attachment 820406 View attachment 820407

Can you tell where it rubbed? This pump is straight where it rubbed, all other pumps I can compare it too have a small curve there. Chinese knock-off the previous owner installed? The marks left on the damper don't go all the way round, so I guess it's out of round.

Bonus pics:

View attachment 820405 View attachment 820404

Hi Rutjes,

From your pictures, are you using the same type of relay for the starter as for the glow plugs?
What is the model number of these black cube shaped solenoids?

Thanks,
Jake