if you have hyd power steering read this

[m-35tom]

after several conversions to power steering using the saginaw 710 box, i wanted to solve the problem of the steering not really wanting to return to center and not tracking well at highway speeds. i used a magnetic caster/camber gauge to check things and found that the stock caster was -3/4 deg!! no wonder things were not 'right'. to correct this i discovered that i could reverse the wedges that are between the springs and axle housing. i had to drill new locating holes to accomplish this. now the caster is +3 1/2 degrees and it steers and tracks like it should.

 

[hot_rod_deuce_2]

Good job.......Mine is still -1 I was going to put a 3 deg wedge in it also I will have to do some work on my yoke then. I did toe mine in 1/4 in to keep it from wondering.

 

[DanMartin]

Wow...thanks Tom!

Any pics of this effort would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Trango]

Interesting - I've always wondered about this. I thought I had put an angle finder on the kingpins at some point, but if there's more inclination to be had, I'm all for it. When I have built axles in the past, I typically have gone for 6 to 8 degrees of caster.

By the way, I also found that, on my deuce, the toe-in was also very open vs. what I'm used to. Slightly lengthening the tie rod (behind the axle, which serves to close the toe alignment spec) was also beneficial to increase handling.

 

[gringeltaube]

Interesting (and strange!), Tom. Years ago after converting my first M35 to 14.5 super singles and PS, besides adjusting to 0 toe-in, I also increased the caster. Just adding 2-3 deg. by grinding away some material off the wedges made a noticeable difference and helped to almost eliminate that wandering syndrome. Stability and returning to center was "good enough" then and with almost 2" of suspension lift (re-arched springs + more leaves) I was afraid to go any further to avoid affecting front driveline angle. Also more caster inherently increases steering effort, at least while standing still.
That time I didn't measure the caster angle before/after; the end result was more important to me than numbers.

On the truck I'm building right now I just checked the stock angle: +2-½ º (frame perfectly horizontal). "Visually" that's more or less the picture I'm used to see on every other truck: upper kingpin slightly backwards from lower one.
Now I'm "wondering" and trying to figure out your case. First of all, what are the specs and tolerances for the front end alignment in a MF deuce w/winch? Any different from the older models? How could you have found only -¾º if your front suspension is stock...??
I also just measured the wedges I have laying around: they all are 4 to 4-½º, so reversing them would add approx. 9º! That would be little over 8º in your's, not just 3 ½º (???)
Could it be that there are different versions of those wedges and that A2s which also have beefier springs came with just 2-3 degrees???? Was there any change or "upgrade" in steering geometry sometime in Deuce history? The ones I have here are all from the old gasser generation.
Anyone????

G.

 

[m-35tom]

gerhard, my truck is built entirely from parts. the springs are from a winch truck, the axles are from norway, the frame was from another truck etc. i tried just adding shims before i realized that there was an angle built into the 'seat, lower leg, part number 7521824' as the -34P calles it. the picture in the manual does not show any taper. when i added 3 deg shims it made almost no difference. i know, sounds odd. then i took the stock spring seats out and reversed them. as to toe in, the specs call for 1/8 to 1/4 at the tread. on such big tires this is almost 0, just enough to be toed in technically. i set mine at 3/16 and see no tire wear.

 

[m-35tom]

spring to axle mount in the reversed position. the left side is the rear.

 

[beaubeau]

Juse something to share with someone!! I took the Deuce for a ride today after a Snow storm couple days ago!! I don't need Power Steering now!!! It steers fine , in the Snow Covered Road!!!LOL! Phil

 

[gringeltaube]

OK Tom, that wedged spring seat looks identical (same 4º angle) to the ones I have. Mounted that way you MUST have more than just +3 ½º! Excuse my Q but how/where did you measure?
See the attached diagram of what I could find on a stock gasser front end.

The reason I'm insisting on this subject is because other Deuce owners keep asking me what the optimal (caster)angle is when running wide radials

In your pic. there appears to be a gap btw. that reversed part and the axle tube, as if it wasn't correctly seated all the way????

G.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I can say this. On manual steering vehicles, they try to keep caster pretty close to zero as it helps reduce steering effort and heeps the wheel from returning at too fast a rate and ripping off thumbs of unwise drivers. I really don't think 3 or 6 extra degrees of + camber will hurt anything with a PS system in place. Caster like that on a manual steer truck would be an SOB. I think 4x4 Chev trucks and blazers from the 73-87 body style show a perfect example of exagerated + caster.

 

[m-35tom]

this was measured using a snap-on magnetic caster/camber gauge. it went from -3/4 to +3 1/2, which if they are 4 deg i guess would make sense. (i just retorqued the u bolts)

 

[Jake0147]

If there's a four degree piece removed, you should get four degrees of change. When it's reinstalled in the reverse direction, you should get an additional four degrees of change. Total change should be eight degrees. The shim is not four degrees, or something's not seated quite right. Front axles are pretty important to stay where you bolt them, just be sure...

Also it looks as you have it right, but it should be noted that whenthe top casting is reversed, the lower one needs to be reversed as well. It's obvious enough if you know you're looking for it, but if you're under there with big power tools you can get them backwards and they will move the u-bolts enough to draw up. I've got an international at work waiting for me where somebody got the lower plate on the rear axle backwards (very similar setup), a quick spring pack replacement is going to cost them an axle housing.

 

[m-35tom]

so it must be 2 deg , gerhard?? flipping the upper shim has nothing to do with the lower spring plate.

 

[gringeltaube]

Sorry, I had to...... paint! (and also take advantage of some basic trigonometry...)

..... and YES, just reversing them will add almost nine degrees!

G.

 

[m-35tom]

well, all i can tell you is that i was parked on level paved surface with magnetic gauge and that is what i got. i had put in 3 deg shims and did not notice the taper of the spring mount and they made almost no difference. now it reads 3 1/2+ deg and steering almost returns to straight when driving.

 

[imported_Squirt-Truck]

Can someone clarify why the manual gives a caster angle of 3 degrees and a kingpin inclination of 8 degrees? (Yes I know that these are specs from a 5 ton but I assume that the overall alighment specifications are similar are am I way out behind something green....) Is this issue, having the kingpin angle not 0degrees with the axle housing part of the delima?

Failure to re-center and wandering is something many of us would like to get addressed.