"Inventing" a "New Multi-Fuel Engine"

[oldMan99]

"The short duration of SCAI combustion as validated by the rate of heat release supports the
goal of reaching 400 Hp at high rpm with an engine displacing 3.2 liters." Quoted from one of their PDF's. Thats enought to power a Duece, and at 3.2L you could mount two of them together and put them in tractor trailers. Dang.

Could somebody translate that into some form of stupid that maybe I can understand? I mean 400 hp from a 3.2L engine sounds good but the rest of that.....

 

[big block 88]

As far as high compression goes, diesel performance enthusiasts, sled pullers, and drag racers use high compression 12v 6bt engines all the time, so I would think it would be a good candidate from that standpoint. The Bosch P7100 used on these engines is also nearly bulletproof, as well as capable of handling different types of fuel. A different piston design as well as a different injector design would probably be the only needed modifications.

Actually being in the diesel performance businuess myself we are after dropping the CR to make the motors more reliable at higher RPM and Cylinder Pressures. A race built Duramax or Cummins would not be high compression.

Common Rail diesels have began to excel at burning waste oils. Durmax and Common rail cummins have a very good track record of burning wvo, moreso maybe than the idi diesel engines.

I would say the OP here is write the durability of a 6bt or even chevy small block would be the best basis for starting a new muit fuel engine, there durability and simplicity are rivaled by no one. But then again I would say a stroked duramax with a high compression ratio and some work with the injector cups would be a good option, as the Duramax is a very heavily built medium duty diesel that can handle some VERY extreme cylinder pressures, but the weak link WILL be the crank shaft. The duramax crowd is seeing some increased breakage around and above the 1000 RWHP mark. Which could be attributed to the cylinder pressure the motors is makeing.

 

[myJEEPisAfatty]

I would also vote for a Detroit in the fact that they are so simple and will crank over on anything flamable.

But their injectors are very temperamental. you would have to do some serious redesigning in that department. But I could see a 6-72 being a suitable multifueler.

 

[4trans]

Could somebody translate that into some form of stupid that maybe I can understand? I mean 400 hp from a 3.2L engine sounds good but the rest of that.....

I think they are saying that the briefness of the power cycle, means 400 horses out of 3.2 liters. But I never listened to engineers anyway. "loan" one to someone to replace their Cummins 400BC, and we shall see about a 400 horse, 3.2liter, multifuel.

 

[motomacguyver]

I think they are saying that the briefness of the power cycle, means 400 horses out of 3.2 liters. But I never listened to engineers anyway. "loan" one to someone to replace their Cummins 400BC, and we shall see about a 400 horse, 3.2liter, multifuel.

Not to p@@p on anyone’s cheerios. But don’t forget that HP = torque x rpm / 5252.

That is why a motorcycle engine makes ~ 150 hp @ 12000 rpm. Or a model airplane engine "makes" 4.6 hp @ 22,000 rpm. But either engine will not move a deuce unless it has ALOT of gearing options.

I would be impressed if it made 400 HP at 1800 rpm though.

 

[66Reo6X6]

Very interesting subject ! Will have to keep an eye on this.

 

[ca1517]

I know for a fact that a CR 24v Cummins will run on 50% wmo, or 50% wvo. If you decide to do this, the filtering is VERY important. I know we are all looking at viable options for bad situations, but I just do not think that you can beat the multifuel design in the deuce.

 

[Hammer]

PRINCIPLE OF HYPERCYCLE OPERATION

There is a great description of how the multi fuel engine works!

 

[gringeltaube]

PRINCIPLE OF HYPERCYCLE OPERATION

There is a great description of how the multi fuel engine works!

Great......... now please read again and try to understand how it really works....

Near the top of the compression stroke,
27 degrees before top dead center (btdc),
fuel is injected by the fuel injector nozzle.
A small amount (five percent)
of injected fuel is deposited as a thin film on
the walls of the spherical combustion chamber
in the head of the piston.
(1) This small amount of fuel charge is
atomized into the air space in the
spherical combustion chamber in the
head of the piston and functions as a
spark plug for the remainder of the
charge.

Text to fig. 14: …… 5% of injected fuel mixes directly with air as droplets and ignites in spherical combustion chamber




G.

 

[Hammer]

Ok, as I quickly read that, I understood it as only 5% of the fuel was atomized from the injection event itself.
All remaining fuel is atomized by the swirling air over the 'pool' of fuel in the piston chamber.
I read it as saying that the 5% being atomized from the injection event is used to 'spark' off the combustion, seeing as all the rest of the fuel is in liquid form and not yet atomized properly.

 

[gringeltaube]

You got it right.... but that description you had suggested is wrong (not great) and should be corrected.... IMHO



G.

 

[Hammer]

Ah, now I get your drift.
I read it easily enough, but I guess that by saying it was a 'great' description, it should have been easier to read in layman's terms.
To which, you are correct.
But it is a technical description, and not meant for easy reading. Ah well, I don't want to re-write the whole thing so a 2nd grader can understand it. It does show nice pictures of how it works though (sarcasm intended... )

 

[SGTStewart]

opcorn: don't mind me I just watching.

 

[plym49]

So, please someone construct an imaginary multi-fuel SBC from parts in the Summit catalog.

Vortec heads for the swirl, probably custom pistons, heavy duty rods, a forged crank, small valves with low lift to provide more clearance to the piston (and we are not after max HP), a custom cam, and maybe Deuce fuel injectors adapted to the heads in place of spark plugs. 350 4-bolt block, or maybe an aftermarket block.

It might not be optimal, but I'd bet it would work.

Running parts intended for high HP-high RPM race motors would probably do just fine at lower rpm and with a modest HP output.

If the above is on the right track, then maybe some of the experts can fill in some part numbers.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

So, please someone construct an imaginary multi-fuel SBC from parts in the Summit catalog.

Vortec heads for the swirl, probably custom pistons, heavy duty rods, a forged crank, small valves with low lift to provide more clearance to the piston (and we are not after max HP), a custom cam, and maybe Deuce fuel injectors adapted to the heads in place of spark plugs. 350 4-bolt block, or maybe an aftermarket block.

It might not be optimal, but I'd bet it would work.

Running parts intended for high HP-high RPM race motors would probably do just fine at lower rpm and with a modest HP output.

If the above is on the right track, then maybe some of the experts can fill in some part numbers.

I would NOT start with a 4 bolt main block, just MHO. I would start with a bolt main block and have it machined for the 6 bolt bearing caps. Stronger bottom end than 4 bolt mains, which many argue are not better than the 2 bolt mains. I dont understand the argument, but I know that when I was building my 383 stroker, it was discussed on the Thirdgen.org forum.

 

[plym49]

I would NOT start with a 4 bolt main block, just MHO. I would start with a bolt main block and have it machined for the 6 bolt bearing caps. Stronger bottom end than 4 bolt mains, which many argue are not better than the 2 bolt mains. I dont understand the argument, but I know that when I was building my 383 stroker, it was discussed on the Thirdgen.org forum.

OK, now we have a starting point.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

OK, now we have a starting point.

Im no expert, but that was where my mind went when someone said Diesel in a 350.

Could Deuce injectors work in the spark plug hole? Idk how well that would work...

Obviously forged instide.

Custom pistons, and a custom cam (Which would take some knowledge to build)

My mind though, is on the injection pump.... How would you time it? Maybe build some Frankenstein that goes into the back of the block where the distributor would usually go?

Personally, Id like to shoe horn an LDT into my 75" Chevy C20. ****, if you have a welder, I will trade my 350 for your LDT.

 

[plym49]

Im no expert, but that was where my mind went when someone said Diesel in a 350.

Could Deuce injectors work in the spark plug hole? Idk how well that would work...

Obviously forged instide.

Custom pistons, and a custom cam (Which would take some knowledge to build)

My mind though, is on the injection pump.... How would you time it? Maybe build some Frankenstein that goes into the back of the block where the distributor would usually go?

Personally, Id like to shoe horn an LDT into my 75" Chevy C20. ****, if you have a welder, I will trade my 350 for your LDT.

Oh, so I give up my welder and my multi, and I get a 350 in return? Cool! But I might be taking advantage of you by getting the better end of that deal, so let me throw in a bag of gold coins to make it fair and square.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Oh, so I give up my welder and my multi, and I get a 350 in return? Cool! But I might be taking advantage of you by getting the better end of that deal, so let me throw in a bag of gold coins to make it fair and square.

You misunderstood, you can keep the welder, you just have to spent 15 mins helping me do the super easy conversion!

Keep the money. What can I say, I am a giver

 

[plym49]

You misunderstood, you can keep the welder, you just have to spent 15 mins helping me do the super easy conversion!

Keep the money. What can I say, I am a giver

LOL.

I think we need an engineering answer to this question: If a race car or race boat engine can produce high power at high rpm and high load for extended periods, why can't the same parts (block, crank, rods, pistons, heads) run a 23:1 CR compression ignition under less load, lower rpm and perhaps a tenth as much power?