Is it CJ-5 or M38A1?

[Heliarc]

Hi guys,

I just purchased a 1963 Willys.Of course the past owner says it was military.That wasn't the selling point for me, only a bonus.I'm just interested in a good off road vehicle that I can have a good time restoring.What I need to know is if it was really military or not.

It has a small removable section on the passebger side of the hood where a snorkel would go through.On the passenger side of the tub in front of the "doorway" is a (approx) 7-8" circular hole where something went.underneathy where the passenger seat was is a toolbox or compartment.On the underside there are a few coats of olive drab.I think it was only a 12 volt system but I can't be sure since the generator/alternator is missing, and I haven't torn any lights out to look for voltage ratings.Alot of the things are missing as well including seats, dashboard, canvas.Its basically down to the bare body and theres all kinds of paint all over everything.It has a one piece windshield on it and the taillights are most definitely not military.The engine is a 4 cylinder, it has what I think is a 3 speed gearbox and a twin stick transfer case.Also the speedometer is about 5 inches around.

I think someone may have just put O.D. paint on the tub to try and pass it off as military.Or possibly just changed the tub.If there is any diffinitive way to find this out I would appreciate any help.

I have the serial number off of the plate on the driver side of the engine compartment...

57548...153619

I'd like to know whether or not this is a CJ-5 or a military jeep so I know which scheme to go with.I think it would be kind of fakeish to put military accesories on a civvy jeep.If you guys need a pic I can getit, just tell me what you need.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Need pics! The thing on the passenger side is for a slave cable, Probably mil but need pics to verify

 

[Heliarc]

Will do, Im going outside

 

[Heliarc]

Ok heres some pics, if you need any more just tell me and Ill be right on it.Im thinking that the front clip may be off of something else.It has a base coat of bright red and the headlight trim is chrome plated.

 

[Heliarc]

By the way, the bumpers are not origional.They've been welded onto the ends of the frame.I dont know if this ruined the temper or not in the areas affected but I think I might do more harm then good in cutting them off with my torch.I might just clean them off and paint them as they're pretty heavy.

 

[BFR]

is that the super rare mustard bottle radiator?

 

[clinto]

is that the super rare mustard bottle radiator?

Dude, that's the even rarer mustard bottle overflow container.

 

[doghead]

Guys , Guys, It's clearly not a Jeep at all! It has a bulldog on the hood. That makes it a MACK ,for sure!!!

 

[Heliarc]

is that the super rare mustard bottle radiator?

Dude, that's the even rarer mustard bottle overflow container.

Nope, it's the exceedingly scarce mustard bottle turbo intercooler.The french Hotchkiss was equipped with a Dijon version.

 

[jasonjc]

I think the battery box in the cowl makes it military don't the civi'y had that did they.
jason

 

[Recovry4x4]

Now the answer to the question! It's sorta military. It has an M38A1 tub on a CJ-5 frame. CJ-5 front grill for sure. Any other questions, just ask!

 

[kenny]

The thing between the spark plug and the head is a anti oil all over the plug thing.Not a good thing.I would check your PSI in all 4 plug holes.

 

[Heliarc]

The thing between the spark plug and the head is a anti oil all over the plug thing.Not a good thing.I would check your PSI in all 4 plug holes.

Well, the engine is locked up from sitting.As soon as I can get it to turn over with a wrench on the end of the crankshaft Im tearing the head off and taking out the pistons.Chances are Ill need rings and have to hone the cylinders.But thanks for clearing that up.The more I discover of the condition it's in the less I like the guy I bought it from.A tarp would have worked wonders also.

Now if its sorta military, would it be proper to paint it olive drab and go with full military get up on it?And would that indeed be possible?

Thanks guys.

 

[Heliarc]

Ok guys, Im getting to the bottom of this.Yes the grill AND the entire front clip are CJ-5.The tub is indeed M38A1 as it has no Jeep logo stamped onto the toolbox under the seat.

When I was out there looking at it again I looked where the rear end of the driver side fender bolt to the tub.Most of the bolts are snapped off.

So(please tell me if you agree with this speculation)I figure someone wanted a military jeep and put on that tub.Then realized how many things he would have to find to do it.He tore off the 12 volt generator and probably couldnt find a 24 volt.He tore out the dash because the CJ instrument cluster he had wouldn't fit the mil dash.Finding all the military things to fit the dash would have been a chore 6 years ago when he was working on it.So I think he just gave up on it and put it in the woods to rot away.

I suppose it might be a military vehichle in some part(tub)but the rest is probably civvy.Still I will persevere.I'm a half decent gas welder and I can patch those flat panels pretty good.Might order new floor pans and a driver side fender and windshield frame and gas tank.

My first concern is mechanics.I'll see if I can get the engine to turn over then do a ring job on it.Gaskets and seals too.Then brakes and clutch possibly.

After that it's coming off the frame and everythings getting sandblasted, patched and painted.

What color I dont know yet...I was kind of hoping you guys could tell me which way to go with it.I really love O.D. paint but I dont want someone who knows anything to point and laugh.Mainly I dont want to be driving around in a fake army jeep.

I do know that it would also look great(to me)in flat black, with a canvas top and mil spec tires on it.I like those just because they look like buisness with the 16" rims.

So basically its up to you guys.Tell me what you think and which plan I should go with.Either a flat black Willys with a few military accesories or an O.D. Willys with a CJ-5 front clip.

I hope either way that you guys are going to like this as much as I am.

 

[Recovry4x4]

M38A1 grilles come up on ebay quite often. They are very cool in the fact that the headlights are recessed. As far as the frame and how I know its a CJ? The M38A1 springs are rigidly attached at the front with a shackle at the rear of the spring, All CJs are opposite, the shackle is at the front.

 

[Heliarc]

well you sure know your onions pal.

I'm thinking of just a composite of military and civvy.Flat black body with military tires and a canvas top.

One thing I've seen on www.kaiserwillys.com was a set of waterproof sparkplugs.They say they are for 24 volts.I dont understand how that can be.I've converted 6 volt systems to 12 before but never had a problem with the origional spark plugs.I'd like to get the waterproof plugs and a snorkel setup.I plan on doing some good off roading with this baby.

And you're right about the M38A1 grill.I like the way the headlights are recessed.Will that grill bolt right on?If it would need some mods I can handle that.

Last one for now, where could I find used mil spec tires?

 

[m.walker]

Build it the way you want , if you want OD use it . Don't worry about anyone else they aren't building their's for you . I think any jeep painted in OD looks good . Any restorer will know its not original , your not trying to fool anyone your just fixing up an old jeep !

 

[Heliarc]

yea, damn straight man.I'll go with it.

Anybody know if those nifty 24 volt taillights can be changed to 12 volt bulbs?

 

[1953USMCM38A1]

CJ 5 v M38A1

Hi Heliarc:

I think you have a heavily civilianized late production M38A1.

Here's some more clues not previously mentioned that separate the CJ 5's from the M38A1's.

If you carefully sand down the sides of your hood you might be able to see original military markings of some kind. If you have them at least you know your hood was once in the military.

Is the chassis boxed-in (rectangular) in the area of the engine compartment? If so, it's a military jeep. The CJ5 is lighter in construction with a conventional U shaped chassis rail from end to end.

Look for a number on a flat spot on top of the cylinder head above the water pump. If it starts with MD it's a military block. It should read something like MD98589 (made up) which is the block number. This number is different/independent from the vehicle serial number.

If the number starts with (I believe) 4J it's a civilian F134 block.

Now, it's my understanding that a military F134 can be fitted with civilian parts with few problems, however, a civilian F134 will not directly swap into a M38A1 with out modifying the engine mounts, radiater shroud alignment, and the bellhousing and starter alignments with the firewall. So, if you can't get a block ID, modifications in these areas might provide some clues to your engine.

Here's a simple one. Does the oil filter canister cap say military filter? If it's a military filter it should. I think the military filter and civilian filter are different sizes with the military being larger.

Here's some intriguing but unproveable (yet) observations from your pictures.

You grill may or may not be original. However, I have seen a late production M38A1 grill with an air scoop like yours that is original. If the grill has mounts for blackout lights it's probably an original variant. Rare.

My jeep and other Marine Corps jeeps seem to have these huge bumper modifications. Mine was welded on as well. I had to cut it off during my restoration (slow hard work!). I am beginning to believe these were an original field modification although I can't prove it.

Also, most of the M38A1's I find on the East Coast seem from my experiance, and others I have talked too, to be USMC jeeps and not Army jeeps. Seems to be a trend, though again, I can't prove it.

Also, if it was actually made in 1963 I think only the Marines were still getting M38A1's at this point in time. I saw a jeep from this time period once with a fascinating (to me) construction that appeared to have quite a few parts that appeared to be from the M151 line of vehicles, including the dash gauges, air cleaner, etc. If you have rubber pin connectors versus Douglas (metal shell) connectors on your original wiring harness you may have one of these, I have heard, really rare Vietnam era M38A1's. If it has Douglas Connectors it is probably is an earlier production vehicle that went through a military rebuild program and some how ended up with a 1963 designation.

I hate to slow you down but I would do more research before restoring your jeep. The amount of time and money devoted to doing a proper restoration won't probably be that much more to rebuilding it as an offroad rig but in the end your vehicle will probably be worth twice as much.

There are so many parts available for these vehicles and so few salvageable jeeps, especially in the East, from my experiance, that, I think, having a real and possibly rare military jeep will be a much more satisfying experiance in the end.

Hope that helps.

 

[Heliarc]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out, its much appreciated.I don't feel you're slowing me down so much, I'd hate to go through this and find I did something wrong.

Anyhow I hope I can get out tomorrow and take a look at everything you mentioned.

I'm thinking it might be civvy frame and front clip however since the bolts holding the drivers fender to the tub are mostly snapped off.

The speedometer that was laying on the floor is larger than the ones I've seen in military jeeps.It looks more like the civvy ones to me.

I'll get back and post again when I have found more out.Thanks again.