Its cold outside lets talk Heaters, H81, H82, H83, etc.

[Smallblockfuelie]

Should I run injector cleaner through my heater?

 

[155mm]

Should I run injector cleaner through my heater?

it doesnt hurt,..... that injector is a big hole, so unless you are burning used oil or ethylene glycol antifreeze thru your heater, it probably will never plug up. I have 387 real hours of run time on mine running d1, d2, k1, jp8, jp4, some oil, sometimes a whiff of gas from the bottom of the jug, and never had injector issues

 

[155mm]

Update on a 'red light of death' issue

My A #1 heater thru a fit when I attempted to use it today, red light no start, throw a fit, red light, attempt to start, run 1-2 minutes, red light come on again, running good fuel psi at low psi, running good psi on heat, then throws red light.

ends up being a stupid zip tie pushed the flame senor out of alignment

cut zip tie in second photo at arrow, pull up on wiring to correct alignment, re ziptie somewhere in circle

 

[JerseyJeeper]

That's what happened to me...my shop went to 90F , it was running after but without flame, have reached hi temps many times before without an issue. It is frustrating, they over engineered those units, the more parts...bigger the price. I disassembled my burner, the injector was clean...they usually get a crust at tip if you don't let it cool down enough before turning off, that was my first time learning when the unit stop working years ago, I have an H81 so the coupler is metal and is not the issue, diesel seems like to flow OK, I got an auxiliary tank and was sucking the diesel good but no flame on burner still. My blue arc is always on, I even gaged the tips. Finally, I replaced the K8 relay with an "exact" same new relay..still...no flame. I don't know if could be a sensor...and if sensor shut the arc or shut the diesel flow ? I am guessing the diesel flow, this damn thing has 3 sensors (that I saw at least). Need be careful buying parts not knowing what is wrong, I paid $200 for the unit 7 years ago and already wasted over $100 on a K8...it can be sooo many things wrong. I will try a few more things when I have a chance.

Hi,
Would you know where to get another original K8? I did find a cross reference here, so I'll try this:

5930-01-294-5759 - THERMOSTATIC SWITCH, 668Z670, 668Z-670, 668Z671 | WBParts

www.wbparts.com

5930-01-294-5759 A switch that is actuated by changes in ambient temperature. Excludes CIRCUIT BREAKER; CONTROL, TEMPERATURE (as modified); FUSE (as modified); PROTECTOR, THERMAL-OVERLOAD, ELECTRICAL MOTOR; RELAY, THERMAL; and THERMOSTAT, FLOW CONTROL. See also CONTROL, TEMPERATURE (as modified) and REGULATOR, TEMPERATURE (as modified).

Part Alternates: 668Z670, 668Z-670, 668Z671, 668Z-671, 8720725, 87207251, 8720725-1, 5930-01-294-5759, 01-294-5759, 5930012945759, 012945759



Thanks,

 

[Guyfang]

Have you used everyone of the NSN's and part numbers in your search engine?

The following companies supplied the part to the Military.

DRS ENVIRONMENTAL SYSTEMS, INC.

DBA D R S

7375 INDUSTRIAL RD

FLORENCE

41042-2911

UNITED STATES

EMERSON ELECTRIC CO

WHITE RODGERS CO DIV

9797 REAVIS RD

SAINT LOUIS

63123-5329

UNITED STATES

FORMERLY WHITE RODGERS CO ST LOUIS

DBA DRS SUSTAINMENT SYSTEMS

201 EVANS LN

SAINT LOUIS

63121-1126

UNITED STATES

 

[IceCastle]

Long time without posting in this thread. Used the heater intermittently back in 2019, then it sat unused for several years. I moved it to center of the shop this year, added a duct system to blow air to both ends of shop, then fired it up again. Got 3 days of running 8 hours per day, then it started acting up again, so tore it apart again. Maybe 50 gallons of fuel has been thru it since nozzle and fire-eye were cleaned in 2019, pic below, if it works, is how it looks now, lots of black soot and carbon buildup, the wet diesel is what seeped out of nozzle after disassembly. Running straight diesel, no WMO. What would cause this? Too rich? IIRC fuel pressure was 90psi, but need to get it back together to check for certain. I see previous suggestion of 70psi, maybe I should adjust down?

 

[JerseyJeeper]

Have you used everyone of the NSN's and part numbers in your search engine?

The following companies supplied the part to the Military.

DRS ENVIRONMENTAL SYSTEMS, INC.

DBA D R S

7375 INDUSTRIAL RD

FLORENCE

41042-2911

UNITED STATES

EMERSON ELECTRIC CO

WHITE RODGERS CO DIV

9797 REAVIS RD

SAINT LOUIS

63123-5329

UNITED STATES

FORMERLY WHITE RODGERS CO ST LOUIS

DBA DRS SUSTAINMENT SYSTEMS

201 EVANS LN

SAINT LOUIS

63121-1126

UNITED STATES

Hi,
Yes, contacted all of them thanks. White Rogers said no equivalent because of the original having continuous ignition and it no longer being made. I did order the “intermittent” ignition model anyway because I think I can modify it to be continuous easy enough. The odd thing is the explanation for “intermittent” in their faq says it’s on as long as the pump is on so that really should be ok anyway.

 

[JerseyJeeper]

Long time without posting in this thread. Used the heater intermittently back in 2019, then it sat unused for several years. I moved it to center of the shop this year, added a duct system to blow air to both ends of shop, then fired it up again. Got 3 days of running 8 hours per day, then it started acting up again, so tore it apart again. Maybe 50 gallons of fuel has been thru it since nozzle and fire-eye were cleaned in 2019, pic below, if it works, is how it looks now, lots of black soot and carbon buildup, the wet diesel is what seeped out of nozzle after disassembly. Running straight diesel, no WMO. What would cause this? Too rich? IIRC fuel pressure was 90psi, but need to get it back together to check for certain. I see previous suggestion of 70psi, maybe I should adjust down?

Have you lost power while operating it or been doing hard shut downs? A crusty nozzle will escalate to that mess as well. Dirty nozzle, low oil pressure or filter clogged or restricted exhaust are all I can think of.

 

[IceCastle]

Have you lost power while operating it or been doing hard shut downs? A crusty nozzle will escalate to that mess as well. Dirty nozzle, low oil pressure or filter clogged or restricted exhaust are all I can think of.

No power losses while operating, and let fan run for 2-3 minutes after turning burner off. Put a new filter on it in 2019, and as stated above less than 50 gallons of diesel thru it since then. Exhaust was lengthened by 16" this year, and that extension is .200 smaller diameter, could not find an exact match in pipe out here in bfe, exhaust length approx 6' .

If my memory is correct, in 2019 I would push bleed/purge valve before firing, and it would fire when switched on, this year would do same but it would not fire on first try, I'd switch back to fan and purge again, then it would fire. Thermostat was set at 60F, and burner would stay on for hours without cycling, decided to bump thermostat down to 50F on saturday and it started cycling, roughly 1 minute on, 1 minute off. Left for an hour and returned to find shop cold, and red light of death on, purged, reset, it cycled a few more times, then red light of death again, so I shut it down. Tried starting it again on sunday and it would not fire.

Fire-eye was dirty, soot wiped of of nozzle easily, diffuser ring scrubbed clean.

Edit: Nozzle taken apart/inspected, looked clean under high power magnification, and now back together. Getting ready to reassemble burner and try again.

 

[JerseyJeeper]

No power losses while operating, and let fan run for 2-3 minutes after turning burner off. Put a new filter on it in 2019, and as stated above less than 50 gallons of diesel thru it since then. Exhaust was lengthened by 16" this year, and that extension is .200 smaller diameter, could not find an exact match in pipe out here in bfe, exhaust length approx 6' .

If my memory is correct, in 2019 I would push bleed/purge valve before firing, and it would fire when switched on, this year would do same but it would not fire on first try, I'd switch back to fan and purge again, then it would fire. Thermostat was set at 60F, and burner would stay on for hours without cycling, decided to bump thermostat down to 50F on saturday and it started cycling, roughly 1 minute on, 1 minute off. Left for an hour and returned to find shop cold, and red light of death on, purged, reset, it cycled a few more times, then red light of death again, so I shut it down. Tried starting it again on sunday and it would not fire.

Fire-eye was dirty, soot wiped of of nozzle easily, diffuser ring scrubbed clean.

Edit: Nozzle taken apart/inspected, looked clean under high power magnification, and now back together. Getting ready to reassemble burner and try again.

I hope the cleaning does it for you. Is there any chance water could have made it into the fuel? Just some condensation in a near empty tank can be problematic, sputtering builds up goop quick. Fresh fuel and cleaning and check electrode gaps is a great first step.

 

[IceCastle]

It is back together, and no joy. It just sputters and chuffs, I can see a nice hot arc on the ignitors with just the fan on but can tell its not lit by holding my hand over viewing port. I did clean viewing port too, after 3 no-starts it had an oil mist so cleaned again. I'll see if I can get someone to come by and throw switch while I look inside to see whats happening.

Are the H82's any better, I picked a few of those up last year, keeping the H81 running seems to be a pia.

Has anyone ever had one of these run for years without issue?

Edit: Condensation, I guess its possible, but fairly unlikely. It was stored for 3 years with half tank of fuel, but our relative humidity is usually under 30%, and there are no wild temperature fluctuations in the Ice Castle. And that fuel would have burned off in the first 2 days, since then its 5 gallons at a time from the only gas station in town a block away. Its so dry here that the occasional rodent that finds its way in just mummifies, no rotting action, maggots etc, and the snow sublimates faster than it melts.

 

[Mullaney]

It is back together, and no joy. It just sputters and chuffs, I can see a nice hot arc on the ignitors with just the fan on but can tell its not lit by holding my hand over viewing port. I did clean viewing port too, after 3 no-starts it had an oil mist so cleaned again. I'll see if I can get someone to come by and throw switch while I look inside to see whats happening.

Are the H82's any better, I picked a few of those up last year, keeping the H81 running seems to be a pia.

Has anyone ever had one of these run for years without issue?

Edit: Condensation, I guess its possible, but fairly unlikely. It was stored for 3 years with half tank of fuel, but our relative humidity is usually under 30%, and there are no wild temperature fluctuations in the Ice Castle. And that fuel would have burned off in the first 2 days, since then its 5 gallons at a time from the only gas station in town a block away. Its so dry here that the occasional rodent that finds its way in just mummifies, no rotting action, maggots etc, and the snow sublimates faster than it melts.

.
What if... Temperature where you are? Is it colder that a witches @#$ in a brass bra? Fuel. Is it a winter blend?

If you can get it to crank up and run for a bit, some fuel additive might help freshen up the fuel. It that 50 gallons from 2012? Any possibility that you gathered algae while fuel sat in the tank? Any sort of filter that you could replace?

 

[IceCastle]

.
What if... Temperature where you are? Is it colder that a witches @#$ in a brass bra? Fuel. Is it a winter blend?

If you can get it to crank up and run for a bit, some fuel additive might help freshen up the fuel. It that 50 gallons from 2012? Any possibility that you gathered algae while fuel sat in the tank? Any sort of filter that you could replace?

I honestly don't know if they do a winter blend here, we hit a new low for a specific day here a few weeks ago -21, so it would not surprise me. Does algae grow in cold diesel? I ran most of the old diesel out in the first 2 days, the filter is one of the "self cleaning" type where you twist handle to clean it, and experience with last one says they don't come apart.

Tore burner completely apart, nothing obviously wrong, replaced O-rings on ignitors, reset gap/height/distance of ignitors per the manual, cleaned fire-eye and made sure its aligned., new gasket made for access to burner. Fuel pressure is steady at 90 psi, hot spark on ignitors, looking thru viewport when firing it is an orangeish puffing flame like its trying to ignite but just not getting there. So I'm thinking either the nozzle is bad (tore it apart and can see nice round pinhole when held against light, reading specs on, and a 1" thick magnifying glass for good detail), or its not getting enough fuel, maybe filter clogged, or solenoid not opening/flowing properly? Just under 200hrs TT on meter.

Edit: The 50 gallons of fuel would be since 2019 when I replaced fuel filter with a NOS exact match filter from ebay.

Open to thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Guyfang]

If fuel is coming out of the nozzle, and the igniter is popping off, its got to burn.Are you sure the fuel good?

 

[IceCastle]

If fuel is coming out of the nozzle, and the igniter is popping off, its got to burn.Are you sure the fuel good?

I did put fuel in it Saturday morning, hour or 2 before the problems started, was questioning if maybe I had purchased gasoline by mistake. Fuel can was still right next to heater last night so checked, does not smell like gasoline, feels oily, and would not light off like gasoline with a flame next to it. Not sure how to check if its "bad diesel".

If I remove the line going to burner, does anyone know what kind of gpm I would see? Thinking that is next move, and I could see if there is water in it.

 

[IceCastle]

Looking at manual page 3-16.3 Heater Fails To Operate, it says to check for failure of R1 rectifier and TT meter. Where is R1 rectifier on the H81? Has anyone ever found the H81 manual, I find slight differences not shown in H82/83 manual.

Edit: I cannot find a rectifier, and hour meter operates on 110vac 60hz, so I don't think that page applies to the H81.

 

[Mullaney]

Looking at manual page 3-16.3 Heater Fails To Operate, it says to check for failure of R1 rectifier and TT meter. Where is R1 rectifier on the H81? Has anyone ever found the H81 manual, I find slight differences not shown in H82/83 manual.

.
I hate to admit that I don't know the answers to these other questions, but at -22 fuel will want to gel. In the lines the fuel moves faster and "without its friends" in the tank, it gets colder. IE: Fuel will freeze in the line way before the tank. That happens in a diesel engine for sure...

I would think it would be worth a bottle of (Brand) 911 fuel additive would help. The additive raises the Cetane rating in the fuel. Mix it according to the directions on the bottle. Don't be bashful. Better too much than not enough. Would also make a fuel filter change again.

 

[IceCastle]

.
I hate to admit that I don't know the answers to these other questions, but at -22 fuel will want to gel. In the lines the fuel moves faster and "without its friends" in the tank, it gets colder. IE: Fuel will freeze in the line way before the tank. That happens in a diesel engine for sure...

I would think it would be worth a bottle of (Brand) 911 fuel additive would help. The additive raises the Cetane rating in the fuel. Mix it according to the directions on the bottle. Don't be bashful. Better too much than not enough. Would also make a fuel filter change again.

The heater is inside, an all concrete room, its wicked cold in there but that is also where water line comes into building and the pipes don't freeze, and the day it quit working room was nice and warm inside, at least the air was. On the H81 there is NO replaceable filter element, its a whole assembly, requires removing plumbing, and not cheap, if I can even find one. I'm going to open burner again, disconnect line to nozzle, and see what kind of flow it has, thinking it should also drop pressure too. If pressure stays high, and fuel barely dribbles, I'm going to suspect solenoid valve.

Edit: Fuel filter is an AMF Cuno Auto Klean filter, you just turn knob on top to clean it. Less than 50 gallons of clean diesel fuel has gone thru it since being installed, and I am only person here to add fuel so no mystery there. I'm having a hard time believing this is a filter problem.

Edit again: According to neighbor, retired heating tech, there is a screen inside the pump and maybe that is the problem. Accessed by removing back of pump.

 

[Guyfang]

This is the problem when everyone and his dog uses one thread to troubleshoot problems. Its super long, and 99% of it doesn't pertain to your problem. What is the TM number that is for the H81, so I do not have to look through 10 pages of comments to find it?

 

[IceCastle]

This is the problem when everyone and his dog uses one thread to troubleshoot problems. Its super long, and 99% of it doesn't pertain to your problem. What is the TM number that is for the H81, so I do not have to look through 10 pages of comments to find it?

Where would I find the TM number, don't see it on data tag, but there is an NSN and contract # ?